More Than That - The no.1 Source for Jim and Pam

Steamtown Mall => Chatting at Jitters => Topic started by: Morning Angel on October 16, 2008, 06:25:17 PM

Title: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on October 16, 2008, 06:25:17 PM
Old thread closed. (http://mtt.just-once.net/mb/index.php?topic=352.1005)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on October 16, 2008, 07:24:29 PM
Okay, so the start of a new thread is probably the best time to do this.  The end of the last thread got a little heated. It seems like politics sometimes is perceived as a simple matter of us vs. them., and sometimes what gets lost is that people have real beliefs that shape who they vote for and why they support certain candidates.

I've made it no secret that I support Barack Obama. (Note: I supported Hillary at first, but switched to Obama right before the Georgia primary). But it's not because I don't like John McCain, or because I don't like Republicans. Also, I support Democrats over Republicans in all local elections. Again it's not because of like or dislike.

*I believe that the rich should pay a higher % of taxes. Not because I hate the rich. I honestly think in the long run, it helps them. When people at the middle and bottom get more money, they are more likely to spend it (instead of saving it), so therefore it goes back into the economy when they purchase items.

*I believe that health care is a right and every American should have access for it. I don't think people should have to make a choice on whether they pay their mortgage or they have something checked out at the hospital.

*The power of unions has decreased quite a bit, and that is shameful. People have a righ tto organize for their economic interests without the threat or fear of labor or government stopping them. My uncle was one of the air traffic controllers fired by Reagan, and I am proud of him to this day.

*I'm against the Death Penalty. I think it is applied in a racist manner, and it is too easy for an innocent person to be convicted (see the recent Troy Davis situation here in GA). Even if those issues were fixed, I would still be against the death penalty, because I think mercy is one of the strongest attributes that humans possess and anger or revenge is one of the weakest.

*I'm not a fan of abortion, but I'm not going to tell a woman what to do with her body, and I certainly don't think the government should. I think we should work to reduce the societal reasons that lead people to choose abortion.

*I think it is a shame that people are discriminated against based on sexual orientation. Gay marriage doesn't threaten "traditional marriage" and to deny people that fundamental human right is appalling to me.

*I'm opposed to the Iraq war, because I think it was fought for dubious reasons. If it was for national security reasons, we had several other far more dangerous countries to attack. If it was to protect people from the horrors and bloodhsed of a dictator, we should have been in Darfur.

*I think prosecuting people that are addicted to drugs is ridiculous. I consider addiction a health issue. Drug dealers should be arrested. Drug users hsould be treated.

*I strongly believe in privacy. The government shouldn't have a right to tap my phone, stop my car, search my home, look at my library or internet records unless they have reason to suspect I've done something wrong.

*I think free speech is the most important right we have. The government doesn't have a right to silence people who are trying to protest or express themselves. Even highly objectionable content like pornography (except when it involves children) should be protected, because when the worst of society is protected, then I know my speech is protected.

*I consider myself a Christian, but I'm strongly against attempts to merge religion with our government. "Under God" shouldn't be in our pledge. The Ten Commandments shouldn't be in courthouses. Organized school prayer shouldn't be allowed. In doing so, you create an environment that excludes people who believe differently.

That's not everything, but it's quite a bit. These are the coire beliefs that I hold and they are very important to me. This is why I support Barack Obama. It's not because I hate McCain. I actually have a great deal of respect for him. I respect his service to the country, and he's been a public servant for a long time. I really think he tried to avoid going negative, but was severely pressured into it, and I think he'll regret it in the end that he let some of the more extreme members of his ideology control the campaign and appeal to the worst in people. I do respect that he hasn't gone as far as racebaiting with the Rev. Wright issue, as some have tried to get him to do. I think he's fundamentally a good man. I simply disagree with him on almost every single issue that this country currently faces.

Anyways, i just wanted to get that off the chest.







Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on October 16, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
All good, standard liberal positions.

I'm a moderate, however. I don't fit anyone's label, as far as I can see, and wind up in arguments with both sides. For example, I'm in favor of gay marriage and the right to an abortion (up to the last trimester, and even then I favor exceptions to save the mother's life), but I'm also in favor of gun ownership and the death penalty. Both sides consider me anathema. :)

I'd like to address, with respect, your manifesto on the death penalty, larry. While I admire your commitment to mercy, on death penalty issues I would say that justice must always precede mercy. It can never work the other way around. And the death penalty is never about revenge--that's the basis for vendettas and gang wars. State sponsored executions take justice out of the hands of the victim's family, and puts it in the hands of an impartial judge, jury and executioner. Our system of justice is set up to leach as much volatile emotion OUT of the trial and its subsequent proceedings as possible. It is intended to be as rational an examination of facts as possible, followed by a soberly weighed and measured punishment that fits the crime. Despite the maudlin maunderings of the media, an execution is NEVER about bringing "closure" to the victim's family. It's not about anyone's emotion. You cannot base a society or a system of justice on how you feel.  The death of a criminal is a deeply considered terminus to the life of someone who has violated the social covenant, who has proved he or she cannot live among us. As individuals are entitled to kill in self-defense, so society is allowed to kill in self-defense, be it war or the execution of a duly convicted criminal.

Of course there are mistakes, and that only means we must strive harder to improve our judicial system. We don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If we wait on executions until we have perfected our judicial systems, thousands of guilty people will never get what the punishment their actions have earned. It is vital to a free society to be vigilant watchdogs of the judicial system, and I am glad there are people like larry around who are aware of past errors, are appalled by them, and call them to our attention. It is a valuable service to society, for which I thank you.

I hope nothing I have said here is offensive to someone holding a different opinion. I respect everyone's right to an opinion and to its expression.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on October 16, 2008, 07:52:23 PM
A couple of points I'd like to make in response to your well reasoned post...

*I don't see how execution of a criminal is self defense. If the criminal is captured and in prison, they are no longer threatening anyone.

*Even if we go along with that the Death Penalty should be allowed, that doesn't mean we keep it going while there are still massive mistakes in the system. The mistakes should be fixed first.  Right now we have a system in place where the color of your skin is a major factor in whether you're executed or not. right now we have a system in place where it is very likely that an innocent person can be executed. I don't think any system should be continued that allows these things to happen.

*I think life imprisonment without the possibility of parole is how the most heinous crimes should be dealt with. I think it is a very harsh punishment that achieves society's objectives, while still preserving life and allowing for the correction of errors. Many states do not currently offer this type of punishment. The reasoning is that if this punishment were offered, then juries would be reluctant to send people to death. What happens is some murderers have the opportunity for parole. I'd prefer these people be locked up for life. If they can prove they're innocent, then they get out. If not, then they should stay until the day they die.

The only other thing I'd say is my positions may look like "standard liberal" positions, but I didn't come to these beliefs because they are liberal beliefs. These are the things I believe in, and they just all happen to be liberal.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on October 16, 2008, 08:00:30 PM
Wow... larrymcg421 - I agree with all your political opinions which is a rare feat for me  :D

As a Brit who is heavily invested in the US election and US Politics in general (a political junkie who stays up to watch the US debates even though they're on at 3am our time! Sad I know...), I still find it baffling sometimes how so many people in Presidential elections can be undecided since the differences between both parties are so vast on the big issues. On issues like healthcare, the economy, security etc. the fundamental approach of both parties is different.

McCain and Obama could argue till they're blue in the face about the details of their tax plan and exactly how many people will benefit/suffer but the core values underpinning those policies are clear. The Democrats generally favour more taxation to fund public services - so having a smaller pie with more equal pieces for all, whereas the Republicans want as little taxation and govt involvement as possible leading to a bigger pie but much greater discrepancy in the slices of the pie that sections of society get.

Obviously that is simplifying it and ignoring the cultural issues in which Republicans want more govt involvement (abortion, gay marriage) and Democrats less, but crucially that vision of how you see the world guides all policies. Now I'm always gonna go for a smaller pie with more equal slices - that's just how I see things as being fair - a smaller gap between the rich and the poor and a generally more balanced society. I'm not saying that those who view things from the other angle are wrong - there are perfectly logical arguments to be made about why big govt can be bad and low taxes good. At the end of the day though, you have to make a choice - each side has it pros and cons.

At the presidential level the choice is clear - it's always between two competing philosophies. I'm not really sure how you can be in the middle... What it seems to me is that people become bogged down in things like "Who looks presidential?", "Who's more negative?", "Who do I like?"... which is all well and good but doesn't really affect your life in any meaningful way like the policies that that particular president will inact would....

In Britain and Europe more generally I understand floating voters a lot more because a political consensus has been reached to such an extent that there is very little difference in the parties. Both Labour and the Conservatives would continue to back free universal healthcare, fund public services. Neither would ever bring back the death penalty or ban abortion (even though on say something like the death penalty a majority of Britons when polled favour bringing it back!). But due to the consensus that has been reached it is not a political issue. So two parties which used to be very different - one very socialist and pro-govt, the other very capitalist and anti-govt have come to the centre to the point where maybe the way to judge them is to look at the leaders and see who "looks" the best!

This probably explains why I find US politics so much more fascinating than my own since the stakes are so much higher. I know if my Prime Minister changed tomorrow and the Conservatives came to power, fundamentally little would change - schools, hospitals, police etc would still be funded as before. In the US, whoever is President dictates who will be on the Supreme Court, what happens to healthcare, the economy, education... The difference in tone and direction is clear. If one looks at policies rather than media hullaballoo then a choice either way - McCain or Obama should be obvious to most people based on their core values and beliefs.

Sorry for the rather long and rambling post - I'm truly fascinated by this whole election season  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on October 16, 2008, 08:05:13 PM
*I don't see how execution of a criminal is self defense. If the criminal is captured and in prison, they are no longer threatening anyone.

Murderers may kill again, either in prison or by escaping. In any case, a convicted murderer has proven that he or she cannot or will not live within the law, and the law has an obligation to remove this threat to its authority. Fundamentally, though, the death penalty is a punishment. If we do not execute murderers (and I don't advocate execution for any lesser crime), we devalue human life.

Quote
*Even if we go along with that the Death Penalty should be allowed, that doesn't mean we keep it going while there are still massive mistakes in the system. The mistakes should be fixed first.  Right now we have a system in place where the color of your skin is a major factor in whether you're executed or not. I don't think any system should be continued that allows that.

We cannot delay justice while we wait on the Second Coming, or whatever. I understand your concerns, and I sympathize with them, but I am not convinced of your argument.

Quote
The only other thing I'd say is my positions may look like "standard liberal" positions, but I didn't come to these beliefs because they are liberal beliefs. These are the things I believe in, and they just all happen to be liberal.

No disrespect was intended. I have great respect for all the positions you outlined; I do not think the word "liberal" is a dirty word. I think it's a great word, deriving from the Latin root for "freedom".
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on October 16, 2008, 08:20:10 PM
Here's an example of a current case that really scares me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Davis_case

I fully believe that this man is not guilty. The state of Georgia is about to murder an innocent man on October 27th and that saddens me so much that the best I can do is to try and not think about it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on October 16, 2008, 08:31:49 PM
Murderers may kill again, either in prison or by escaping. In any case, a convicted murderer has proven that he or she cannot or will not live within the law, and the law has an obligation to remove this threat to its authority.

The point is that in so many cases convicted murderers are found innocent decades later. With DNA evidence now being used so many people are being released after serving sometimes 30 or 40 year sentences that it sickens me. To my mind I'd rather a 100 criminals go free than 1 innocent man be in prison for there is no greater crime then punishing an innocent individual. Putting yourself in the position of that person - how would you feel to know you had done nothing wrong and were imprisoned wrongly?

For that reason alone I think the death penalty is abhorrent. Of course some crimes are so heinous that they deserve the harshest punishment. But to me that is not the death penalty - that is life without parole. If I was given a choice of life without parole or the death penalty I'd personally go for the death penalty because to me having to live without freedom in a cell for say 50 years and think about what I've done is much worse then getting an injection to end my life.

I have moral objections to the death penalty ranging from the fact that to me it is hypocritical to say murder/killing is wrong and then endorse government sanctioned murder. To me it is counterintuitive and playing a role that humans should not. Plus every study ever done shows the death penalty to be extremely ineffective as a deterrant - removing the death penalty does not result in an increase in crime. Policies such as prisoner rehabilitation and fighting the causes of crime are better long term than stringent punishments purely because a criminal does not think they will be caught or even if they believe they may be caught they still think their current situation is bad enough to risk that. (I am discounting those with mental illnesses or the truly deranged psychotic killers - they may get the headlines but they are very rare indeed thankfully.)

So for those reasons and others I would oppose the death penalty. But even if I didn't feel that way and thought the death penalty was a workable option - the fact that it will NEVER be foolproof is enough to put me off - how many innocent deaths are okay? What if you or your family member was that person? I think often people believe they would never be in that situation or that there's no smoke without fire but unfortunately you never know what may happen - and that person is ultimately someone's son/father/brother - the agony for their family - to have an innocent relative imprisoned/killed, is as bad if not worse than for the victim of the murder.

Quote
Fundamentally, though, the death penalty is a punishment. If we do not execute murderers (and I don't advocate execution for any lesser crime), we devalue human life.

Out of interest NeverEnoughJam, do you think that every other western civilisation in the world devalues life by not having the death penalty? The only "westernised" nations to have the death penalty apart from the US are Japan (which very rarely applies it) and Singapore. In terms of the number of executions carried out the US shares company with Iran, China, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

To be clear, I'm not attacking the US or you here. Everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinion. Simply curious as to why it is that other countries seems to have come to a very different conclusion  :)

I know the death penalty is a tricky topic so if I have offended I'm sorry - not my intention at all - simply curious as to people's thoughts  :)


Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on October 16, 2008, 08:51:31 PM
At the presidential level the choice is clear - it's always between two competing philosophies.

Well, besides the obvious you don't agree with either of the choices, I know in other elections (granted, I was only able to vote in one other election), I agreed with both parties. I am very socially liberal. And right now, that is the driving force behind who I want to vote for. I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, etc. I feel that that is something to fight for right now. And I am tired of Bush, and think we need a change of leadership to help our place in the world. For me, for better or for worse, those are the ideals I'm basing my decision on this election.

However, both of my parents are Republicans, and I was raised being told the Republican ideals were the 'right ones'. I still believe some of those ideals.

I also know I don't have enough knowledge or life experience to be able to vote on other issues. I don't understand enough about the economy. I don't know enough about how different tax rates will influence my paycheck or my community. I understand it in theory, but its very different than what it is in real life. I don't know what I feel about health care, and I know what I want out of it, but again, how that ties into my life, I don't. I know what I want as the end result, but I don't know the way to get there, and I may decide the end result isn't worth the trip.

I really probably don't even understand enough about how the different branches of government interact to really say getting a Democratic president vs Democratic Congress or half and half and how that will influence all of the above.

So, yeah, I can understand the conflicts and the undecided. I've known that I am making my decision based on a very small section of the issues. But to me, those were what mattered in the here and now. Economy is crap. That is something that I should make a decision on. But I honestly don't think I could at this point in my life. I made a decision based on what I know and feel and that I can judge on now. And I'm hoping that those are enough to make the right decision for everything else.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 17, 2008, 08:19:52 AM
Did you guys catch the Alfred Smith Memorial dinner last night? Obama and McCain were pretty funny roasting each other. (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/16/221811/20/481/633104)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on October 17, 2008, 12:02:47 PM
funkybutt, I only watched a little bit from both speeches, but they were really funny, thought.

So, what's the world coming to when David Brooks, a conservative columnist at the NYT, becomes an Obama groupie? Thinking About Obama (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/opinion/17brooks.html)

And this is one of his from a few weeks ago about what's gone so wrong with the Republican Pary:  Class War Before Palin (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/opinion/10brooks.html)

And since when do I agree with David Brooks?

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on October 19, 2008, 12:35:19 AM
Dear Ms. Palin,

Instead of showing up on SNL and parodying yourself, you probably should be meeting with journalists or going on Meet The Press or you know, some kind of political show.

Sincerely,
Morning Angel
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on October 19, 2008, 12:36:40 AM
Dear Ms. Palin,

Instead of showing up on SNL and parodying yourself, you probably should be meeting with journalists or going on Meet The Press or you know, some kind of political show.

Sincerely,
Morning Angel

lol - I just posted about this in the TV thread.  But I gotta say...I don't care for Palin, but that rap and Amy Poehler was really pretty funny.  A rarity on SNL these days, lol
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 19, 2008, 02:42:01 AM
Sadly, she'll probably get more votes going on SNL than on Meet the Press.  Going on SNL makes some people think "Wow, she has a good sense of humor.  Maybe she's okay."  Meet the Press will be seen by a more educated public and she'd have to actually impress people with her words.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on October 19, 2008, 03:15:45 AM
Sadly, she'll probably get more votes going on SNL than on Meet the Press.  Going on SNL makes some people think "Wow, she has a good sense of humor.  Maybe she's okay."  Meet the Press will be seen by a more educated public and she'd have to actually impress people with her words.

Oh, don't I know it...  That's the depressing part.

I kind of hate this trend of politicians showing up on comedy shows to grab votes and as a shortcut to popularity.  Being able to laugh at yourself qualifies you to be a good neighbour or a fun person to play poker games with... not a top leadership position. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on October 19, 2008, 03:36:09 AM

It's not a new phenomenon. Nixon went on Laugh-In forty years ago in 1968. A lot of people have said that his appearance helped him win the White House.  :P
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on October 19, 2008, 05:21:10 AM
Speaking of Meet the Press, there's a rumor that Colin Powell might endorse Obama when he appears on the show later this morning. That would be a pretty significant endorsement.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on October 19, 2008, 09:28:33 AM

Endorsement's made! Powell has endorsed Obama.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on October 19, 2008, 12:26:41 PM

It's not a new phenomenon. Nixon went on Laugh-In forty years ago in 1968. A lot of people have said that his appearance helped him win the White House.  :P

LOL Oh, sure, it's not totally new, but definitely being used more and more as opposed to presenting themselves on the issues.  Whatever, I am sure I'm in the minority to be bugged by that kind of stuff...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: utterblissikins on October 19, 2008, 12:52:43 PM

Endorsement's made! Powell has endorsed Obama.

With fantastic reasoning, presented beautifully eloquently. The thing about the picture of the woman at her son's grave actually choked me up (okay, that's pretty easy to do...)

I hope this affects some voters. I thought it should have some sway with Independents, at least.

The thing about Palin's SNL appearance is that I don't think many people really needed to see she has a sense of humour. That sort of strategy might work for someone who seems to take themselves really seriously. I don't know much about Biden, but it could probably apply there. But from what I've observed, it'd be hard for the general public to take her less seriously than they do already. I thought she did well, but her time would have been better spent making it look like she actually knows anything (too harsh?)

Or is that putting too much faith in the public? IDK. People fall for this crap from our PM all the time, so I'm probably wrong.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on October 19, 2008, 02:03:01 PM
I watched SNL last night.  I really enjoyed the political sketches but have to say that I wasn't impessed with Sarah Palin (granted, I'm biased).  Anyway, I've seen other celebrities/politicians on SNL and grew to like them because of that appearance and the glimpse into a sense of humor--Al Gore, for instance, comes to mind.  I even thought John McCain was likeable when he appeared on SNL a while back.  Not the case this time.  I thought SP was kind of bitchy.  Granted, it couldn't have been comfortable for her.  I'm pretty sure most of the actors, etc. are not pro-Palin. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on October 19, 2008, 02:04:38 PM
Quote
The thing about Palin's SNL appearance is that I don't think many people really needed to see she has a sense of humour. That sort of strategy might work for someone who seems to take themselves really seriously. I don't know much about Biden, but it could probably apply there. But from what I've observed, it'd be hard for the general public to take her less seriously than they do already. I thought she did well, but her time would have been better spent making it look like she actually knows anything (too harsh?)

Right.  You said it better than I did.  That's exactly what I meant.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 19, 2008, 02:26:37 PM
I thought she did well, but her time would have been better spent making it look like she actually knows anything (too harsh?)

In my opinion, there's a problem with that.  If she's asked tough questions, or questions she's not prepared for, she's not going to look like she actually knows anything.  They're already behind in the polls.  Having more fiascoes like the Katie Couric and Charlie Gibson interviews won't help.  Putting her on something as smart and demanding as Meet the Press would probably be a really bad idea for the McCain/Palin campaign.  The smartest thing they can do is to keep her to canned speeches with hand-picked crowds or to situations like SNL where she can come off looking like an intelligent good sport.  I hope it doesn't work, but it's the smartest thing they can do other than go back in time and pick someone more qualified.

MA, I love that you're from Canada and still taking such an interest.  And you're definitely not the only one bothered by an SNL appearance making more of a difference than knowing the issues.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: utterblissikins on October 20, 2008, 12:50:29 AM
I thought she did well, but her time would have been better spent making it look like she actually knows anything (too harsh?)

In my opinion, there's a problem with that.  If she's asked tough questions, or questions she's not prepared for, she's not going to look like she actually knows anything.  They're already behind in the polls.  Having more fiascoes like the Katie Couric and Charlie Gibson interviews won't help.  Putting her on something as smart and demanding as Meet the Press would probably be a really bad idea for the McCain/Palin campaign.  The smartest thing they can do is to keep her to canned speeches with hand-picked crowds or to situations like SNL where she can come off looking like an intelligent good sport.  I hope it doesn't work, but it's the smartest thing they can do other than go back in time and pick someone more qualified.

That's very true. And how depressing is that? I guess maybe you could say she's just stuck in limbo - she can't do anything for her image either way. If she ever became POTUS, I don't know what I would do. Book a seat on Tina Fey's space rocket?

I don't think my mum actually minds her, which I just cannot stand. Part of me feels like I should be more supportive, but I think rather than advance the cause, she just makes feminists look ridiculous. I hate it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on October 20, 2008, 02:58:06 AM
Looks like the rush to discredit Colin Powell has already started. Pat Buchanan and Rush Limbaugh have stated that Powell's endorsement is only because of race. What's stupid about this is no one accused Lieberman of endorsing McCain only because he's white.

I expect this will only get worse tomorrow. They're going to be coming for Powell. We've seen this before. In 2004, they attacked Kerry's Vietnam record. In 2002, they compared Max Cleland (disabled Vietnam Vet) to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Ironically, in 2000, they used racism against John McCain in the GOP primary. I fully expect the GOP to attack yet another veteran, because they've shown before that they're willing to do whatever it takes to stay in power.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on October 20, 2008, 08:28:06 AM
 I dont see how denigrating  Gen. Powell does anything positive for Rush Limbaugh  or the Republicans.  Why dont they address the reasons for Powell's endorsement?  This is one of the most foolish things Limbaugh has done and I hope it causes a huge backlash.   Why would undecided voters be swayed by the opinions of someone who denigrates an American hero?   
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: i_heart_toby on October 20, 2008, 02:31:59 PM
This ontd political post is a good read, although it is quite infuriating. 

The 10 Worst Members of Congress (http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_political/1202209.html#cutid1)

I was feeling really bad for Larry and his friends down in hotlanta when I got to number 2:
Quote
2. Senator Saxby Chambliss (R), Georgia
Chambliss is a senator today by sole virtue of the fact that in 2002 he attacked incumbent Max Cleland -- who lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam and earned Silver and Bronze stars -- as soft on defense and lacking in patriotism. Where was ol' Saxby during the war? Home, of course, claiming a "football injury." How you get elected reflects your character, and Chambliss should never be allowed to live down the shame of what he did in 2002. Never.

Sad, sad stuff.    :'( >:(

ETA: It seems the list originated from Esquire (http://www.esquire.com/features/esquire-endorsements-2008/10-worst-members-congress-1108?ha=1)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on October 20, 2008, 02:46:15 PM
The latest polls show Chambliss in a very close race with Jim Martin. I gave Martin alot of money. The most I've ever donated to a political candidate. I'm hoping he can pull it off. Chambliss not only attacked Cleland's patriotism, but he ran an ad that compared Cleland to Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. He also declared that all Muslims entering Georgia should be arrested.  Like I said earlier, I almost want him to lose more than I want Obama to win. Almost.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on October 20, 2008, 02:47:51 PM
I've already voted for Martin. I didn't know much about either of them in terms of what their plans are for the state, but, Chambliss is too much a jerk to let him remain in office.

(a part of me dies every time I see a yard sign for him)....

and also... who names their kid Saxby?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 21, 2008, 03:14:31 PM
(http://www.stevenwexler.com/palin_finger.jpg)

You know that if that was one of Obama's kids, the Republicans would be up in arms at how un-American this is.  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cousin Mose on October 21, 2008, 03:16:31 PM
(http://www.stevenwexler.com/palin_finger.jpg)

You know that if that was one of Obama's kids, the Republicans would be up in arms at how un-American this is.  ::)

Snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/politics/palin/piper.asp) That photo's been altered.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 21, 2008, 04:06:33 PM
What kind of nasty person goes around altering photos to make it look like a little kid is making an obscene gesture?  That stinks.

Thanks for checking that out, Cousin Mose.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on October 21, 2008, 04:06:45 PM
Here are two disturbing stories brought to you by some of my fellow volunteers.

One person was making calls last week and got hold of a woman at her home. The volunteer was calling for the woman's husband and asked, "May I speak to your husband?"

"Who is calling?" the woman asked.

"The EL Barack Obama office," the volunteer answered.

"Barack Obama? What's that?" She called out to her husband, "Do you know Barack Obama?"

He didn't. Yes, that's right. The volunteer found two people who had never heard the name "Barack Obama". The volunteer explained to them that he was the Democratic nominee for president.

The woman snapped, "We're watching TV. We don't have time for that!"

And that was that. Say what?!

Story number two:

Another volunteer was manning the phones (on the same night) and got a hold of woman she was supposed to survey.

"Hello, we're calling on behalf of the Obama campaign. If you're willing to say, would you please tell us who you're planning on voting for this November?"

The woman replied, "I'm a traditional woman and a housewife. My husband does not allow me to vote. Stop calling."

Okay, so I obviously understand about not wanting to get any calls and I understand that the EL office and the capital office have made mix ups to that some people are getting calls from both offices which is annoying at best. But . . . Her husband doesn't allow her to vote?

Stories like these make me fall down in shock.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 21, 2008, 04:37:22 PM
Snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/politics/palin/piper.asp) That photo's been altered.

Thanks for pointing that out! Sadly, I wouldn't have been surprised if it was real.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 21, 2008, 04:49:53 PM
Thanks for pointing that out! Sadly, I wouldn't have been surprised if it was real.

I don't really care for Palin's politics, but from what little I've seen her children are well behaved and her 7 year old wouldn't be likely to flip someone off.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on October 21, 2008, 04:52:44 PM
Ugh (http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200881020067). I don't care what side you're on, this is disgusting behavior.

Piper Palin may be my favorite thing about Sarah Palin. She's adorable.  :)

ETA: Hey ladies (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/21/davis-feminists-palin/)! Did you know that if you don't like Sarah Palin, the only reason why is because she's pretty and happy? Not because of her policies? And because we're all obviously hideous and miserable?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on October 21, 2008, 05:48:42 PM
Interesting photo: shows how much Obama looks like his grandfather. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2008-06/39580853.jpg)

He doesn't look a lot like him in that photo but as he gets older he does more.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 22, 2008, 10:03:25 AM
Wow, it's stuff like this (http://wvgazette.com/News/200810170676) that scares me that Obama might not win. In NC, you have to select Obama and then separately vote straight party ticket for everyone else. There have been mentions on the local NPR station that many people aren't aware and that there are fewer votes for Obama. Scary since NC is a swing state!

Why do states have to make voting so difficult and confusing?! (http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_crash.gif)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on October 22, 2008, 11:32:52 AM
Funkybutt, that link doesn't seem to be working?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 22, 2008, 01:16:13 PM
Funkybutt, that link doesn't seem to be working?

Weird, it disappeared! Here's another news article about it. (http://wvgazette.com/News/200810170676) This article is a bit older (from last week) and since then, there have been hundreds of reports of the same issue. Of course, that's hundreds that actually noticed the problem - no telling how many people didn't double check that their vote was accurately counted.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: vailfiregirl on October 22, 2008, 01:23:34 PM
Here's your original link (http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/10/voting-machine.html) - you had just left off the .html
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 22, 2008, 01:34:04 PM
Here's your original link (http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/10/voting-machine.html) - you had just left off the .html

D'oh! Thanks for correcting it. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on October 22, 2008, 07:02:11 PM
I'm not worried about the NC thing. It might be a swing state, but it won't be the swing state. What I mean is Obama will have a better chance at picking up VA or OH or FL or CO than NC.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: colette on October 22, 2008, 07:15:52 PM
I've been feeling pretty optimistic - still am, by and large. But yesterday I had lunch with a friend who's fairly politically savvy, plus her husband has worked in state Democratic politics for years and is a very levelheaded guy...anyway, she brought up something that made me a little nervous - the 'Bradley effect' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_effect):

Quote
The Bradley effect, less commonly called the Wilder effect,[1][2] is a proposed explanation for observed discrepancies between voter opinion polls and election outcomes in some American political campaigns when a white candidate and a non-white candidate run against each other.[3][4][5] Named for Tom Bradley, an African-American who lost the 1982 California governor's race despite being ahead in some voter polls, the Bradley effect refers to an alleged tendency on the part of some voters to tell pollsters that they are undecided or likely to vote for a black candidate, and yet, on election day, vote for his/her white opponent.

The theory of the Bradley effect is that the inaccurate polls have been skewed by the phenomenon of social desirability bias.[6][7] Specifically, some white voters give inaccurate polling responses for fear that, by stating their true preference, they will open themselves to criticism of racial motivation. The reluctance to give accurate polling answers has sometimes extended to post-election exit polls as well. The race of the pollster conducting the interview may factor in to voters' answers.

Again, this may not be applicable here/now in this election, but combined with recent polls that indicate the candidates running very close amongst people likely to vote (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_el_pr/ap_poll_presidential_race), it has me a bit concerned.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on October 22, 2008, 07:39:04 PM
I was just speaking to a friend about this.  It may be that I'm naive, but I'm not very worried about the Bradley effect.  Here's one of the articles I read recently:  Debunking the Bradley Effect (http://www.newsweek.com/id/165030/page/1)

First, I think we have come a long way since 1982 in terms of race relations(again, maybe I'm naive).  Plus, I think there are enough plausible reasons to give for not voting for Obama (even if your problem is race) like lack of experience, or that he's too liberal, that it's easier to say you won't vote for him without mentioning race.

Second, I'm actually encouraged by how many early votes have already been cast.  Some have speculated that voter turnout may be really high in this election.  I tend to think people have become so disenchanted with politics, that in order for there to be a big turnout, it will be b/c people are excited by a candidate.  I don't find that many are excited about McCain, even among republicans and conservatives I know.  The fact that McCain even went on about abortion as much as he did in the last debate indicates that he's struggling with the base (social conservatives) of the republican party that got bush reelected.  On the other hand, I see so much genuine enthusiasm for Obama - he's not just "the lesser of two evils" as Kerry was.

Third, I think all the grass roots efforts of the Obama campaign, and other groups, are going to pay off.  I read about this (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/13/great.schlep/index.html) on cnn which I found encouraging as well.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on October 22, 2008, 07:42:21 PM
I'm not worried about the Bradley effect because there's another effect this time - pollsters are having a hard, almost impossible time being able to reach people who are only on cellphones and have no landline. So those folks are not factored into most polls much and they skew heavily Dem.

Also, Chuck Todd who is pretty smart about these things, says the Bradley effect is a myth. I unfortunately can't remember his reasoning but he's generally pretty knowledgeable and even handed.

The polls aren't that close anyway. The national number is one thing but look at these state by state polls:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: utterblissikins on October 23, 2008, 12:14:23 AM
We've talked a lot about the Bradley effect in my Pols course, and I'm honestly not too worried. When it first came up, my Professor estimated that it would likely only be a few points difference, and with Obama's lead in the polls, I think it won't be enough to change the outcome of the election.

But now you have to take the volatile economic conditions into account. People are scared. The guest lecturer we had today from Georgetown was saying that the people for who Obama's race is an issue are going to have to weigh their options. And okay, for some people the fact that he's black will outweigh their personal financial situation. But for most people, when it comes down to the choice of a white President or keeping their job, they will absolutely put the race issue aside. It's the economy, stupid.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on October 23, 2008, 12:44:04 AM
Just to add a couple of more things...I just caught today's Newshour and they had a panel discussing the issue of race in this election.

All of the panelists agreed that race is still relevant, but maybe not as relevant as it was in 1982.  For one, there's the issue of the changing demographic in the country. For most young people, race isn't a big deal.  It is a more significant issue, though,  for older, white, and less well-educated (or blue collar) voters - like the voters Rep. Murtha mentioned being worried about. But, as utterblissikins pointed out, the economic crisis is effecting that portion of the electorate especially hard -the issue of race is being muted a bit by their concerns over jobs, healthcare costs, etc.

Also, interesting, is the possibility of the reverse-Bradley effect. In past elections, the older, white voters were the most consistent and reliable voters, meaning they were the ones you could rely on get out of the house and cast a ballot.  Those that tend to be inconsistent are younger voters, minority voters.  But the number of early ballots being cast so far suggests that there is buzz about Obama (the "Obama effect") that is energizing that portion of the electorate and we may see these groups coming out in strong numbers.

But, each of the panelists agreed that we only will know for sure how it will play out on election day.  So, here's hoping that we've grown up as a country and aren't going to let race determine this election.

BTW, there was a Frontline episode last week on Obama and McCain - just their lives, how they got to this point, etc.  Anyway, interesting story on the race-thing - when Obama was considering a run for president, he asked his african-american colleagues and friends what they thought, and a lot of them said that they didn't think America was ready for a black president.  And Obama's response was that if America isn't ready for that now, it probably won't be during his lifetime and he might as well take the chance sooner rather than later.  :-\ I thought that was interesting.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on October 23, 2008, 01:19:28 AM
Interesting.

Sometime during the past few days, MSNBC talking heads discussed a different take on the Reverse Bradley Effect. They contend that in parts of the country there are white voters, who even though they plan to vote for Obama, would never reveal that fact to a pollster or friends/neighbors. The implication is that it would not be safe for these voters to do so. This situation causes Obama's poll numbers to be lower than they should be. I guess it all evens out because of some other folks who won't reveal they're not voting for Obama because they fear they'll appear racist.

Howard Fineman from Newsweek blogged about this view of the Reverse Bradley Effect.

Quote

He is an old gent, in his eighties, but a hale and hearty one, wiry and strong.
 
Ernie said that he'd never smoked, and drank but little, and watched what he ate.

These all good things, considering that he needed to work, and the work he did required him to lift bags — sometimes heavy, hard-shelled golf bags — for the businessmen who rode his rental car shuttle to and from the St. Louis airport.

He had been reared a Democrat, he said, as had nearly everyone in St. Louis in those days. It was Truman's time in Missouri — a state with more than a dram of Southern Comfort in its blood.

In recent decades, Ernie had voted for Republicans from time to time. But considering recent economic events, he said it was time to return to his ancestral political roots.

And then, in a tone that was as much confession as joy, he told me sheepishly: "I'm gonna vote for the colored boy. I like the way he's talkin'."

I think of Ernie, who I encountered when I went out to St. Louis for the vice presidential debate, when I hear all the talk about the so-called "Bradley Effect."

Even non-political junkies know the idea: some whites harbor racist beliefs and won't admit to polltakers what they really think, which is that they would never vote for an African-American.

But assuming that there is indeed a Bradley Effect (named for the late mayor of Los Angeles), what if there's an opposite?

I'll call it the Ernie Effect — voters, especially older or more conservative voters in Red States, who don't want to readily admit to neighbors (or pollsters) that they plan to go into the voting booth and pull the lever for Barack Obama.

more at source (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/racetothefinish/archive/2008/10/22/could-obama-get-a-reverse-bradley-effect.aspx)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on October 23, 2008, 01:19:58 AM
*snip*  Again, this may not be applicable here/now in this election, but combined with recent polls that indicate the candidates running very close amongst people likely to vote (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_el_pr/ap_poll_presidential_race), it has me a bit concerned.

Heh.  Yeah, I'm not buying the AP poll, and it's not just because that article was written by one of McCain's favorite donut (http://www.jedreport.com/2008/06/ap-scribe-who-s.html) providers, but according to people who know way more about this, than I do, the AP's sampling is flawed. (http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/new-flawed-ap-poll-claims-mccain-and.html)  FiveThirtyEight (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/some-likely-voter-models-are-suspect.html) has more detail.   

The AP is not the credible news source it used to be. 

I agree with zeebee about the Bradley effect.  I'm hoping we're better than that, but we'll just have to see.  I continue to be surprised by the amount of race baiting that has gone on during this campaign.    :(

But having said all of that, I'm nervous too, but cautiously optimistic that we're going to get this one right.

I had an Obama picspam all ready to go, but Photobucket is being annoying tonight.  Maybe later.   They were some good pics, too.  :(

ETA:

halfbaked - I've seen this happen in my town during our last Gubernatorial election.  I was a precinct coordinator for Deval Patrick (http://mass.gov/governor), who incidentally is a very good friend of BHO -- anyway, there were many people in my town who we ID'd as voters for Deval, but were unwilling to put a yard sign up because they didn't want their neighbors to know they were voting for him.  I just wanted the votes, but it really surprised me that there was that kind of a mindset at work in the so-called most liberal state in the US.

Deval won by a landslide.  ::shrugs:: 


Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: utterblissikins on October 23, 2008, 03:23:34 AM
*snip*  Again, this may not be applicable here/now in this election, but combined with recent polls that indicate the candidates running very close amongst people likely to vote (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_el_pr/ap_poll_presidential_race), it has me a bit concerned.

Heh.  Yeah, I'm not buying the AP poll, and it's not just because that article was written by one of McCain's favorite donut (http://www.jedreport.com/2008/06/ap-scribe-who-s.html) providers, but according to people who know way more about this, than I do, the AP's sampling is flawed. (http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/new-flawed-ap-poll-claims-mccain-and.html)  FiveThirtyEight (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/some-likely-voter-models-are-suspect.html) has more detail.   

The only poll anyone should pay attention to is the Gallup poll. 14 out of 14 Presidential elections it has gotten it right. I think Obama's currently sitting at 52 to 44.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on October 23, 2008, 06:09:33 PM
More of the land of "I'm related to these people?!"

My aunt told my mom today that Obama has already won the election because only Democrats are allowed to vote. Did you know that democrats are voting multiple times AND in multiple states? All these Texas democrats are coming up to Ohio to vote a few more times. It's just awful.
Plus, Georgia is such a democratic state (could have fooled me with all of these McCain signs around), and its awful that my mom chooses to live in such a place.

My mom responded with that in Georgia, they know its such a democratic state, so they are allowing the republicans to vote multiple times, in hopes that that will help McCain.

And my aunt bought it. Of course.

I look to her as a source of humor. And then in utter disgrace that we share DNA. But ya know what, I'm already going to hell a thousand times over according to her, so whatever. I'm just upset that people actually believe this stuff. Republicans are fine. I know many of them. it really is just a difference of opinion for what you feel is best for our country. And I respect those opinions, and I agree with some of them. But when you form those opinions based on complete lies and refuse to even listen to anything close to the truth... that I hate.

ETA: I know I go on and on about my relatives, but I need to rant about them, because its so frustrating.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on October 24, 2008, 12:41:01 AM
I can't imagine JM will be too happy about this.

http://joinrudy2012.com/

I'm not a big McCain fan but still, that seems disrespectful while he's still in the running.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: i_heart_toby on October 24, 2008, 10:55:49 AM
Whose Scranton Is It, Anyway? (http://radaronline.com/quiz/2008/10/joe_biden_the_office_scranton_quiz.php)

It is harder than you might think.  You have to decide whether each quote was said by someone from the Office or Joe Bide.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on October 24, 2008, 11:04:33 AM
Whose Scranton Is It, Anyway? (http://radaronline.com/quiz/2008/10/joe_biden_the_office_scranton_quiz.php)

It is harder than you might think.  You have to decide whether each quote was said by someone from the Office or Joe Bide.
They told me I watch too much TV, because I could instantly tell every quote from TO. If I didn't recognize it, it was Biden. However, besides making me realize how obsessive I am, it was fun. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 24, 2008, 11:16:54 AM
I only got a 7 out of 10.  They wanted to know if I attended summer camp in Lackawanna County because I seem to know an ungodly amount about Scranton. ;)  I didn't think I did that well, actually.  I don't have a lot of the Michael quotes in my head because I find it difficult to listen to him at times -- it's the cringe factor.

Wouldn't it be neat someday to see Joe Biden on The Office? :)  Michael could recognize him and think he was on The West Wing.  Or in true Michael-style, Two and a Half Men.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on October 24, 2008, 11:21:51 AM
TLK I guess I went to the same camp too.

I think the writers will probably make a reference to Biden after the election is over.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: utterblissikins on October 24, 2008, 12:34:34 PM
9/10. I missed the quote about the hard working Scranton crew from Sexual Harassment. I haven't seen that ep in the looongest time.

Came across this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/us_elections_2008/7682876.stm) today. Here's what a waitress from Uniontown, PA had to say about the election:
Quote
"I like McCain because I can say his name, so I'll probably vote for McCain."

She was not well informed, but her views were clear.

"He's from Africa or something. I don't even know where he's from. I know he grew up here, but he's not from here. I think American presidents should be from America."

DEAR GOD. How can I know more about the Constitution than her, and I'm not even American? I mean, that's basic knowledge. Don't you guys get taught this stuff in high school? Scary.

Ditto choosing to vote for someone because of their name :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on October 24, 2008, 12:46:59 PM
DEAR GOD. How can I know more about the Constitution than her, and I'm not even American? I mean, that's basic knowledge. Don't you guys get taught this stuff in high school? Scary.

I was taught it in elementary school, middle school, and high school. Its a part of all the curriculum I've ever known.
Unfortunately, its a common belief he's from Africa and not American. Along with the Muslim terrorist misinformation.

Its been two years he's been running. Someone would have noticed if he wasn't eligible to run. And even John McCain himself has said that Obama is a good name, not a terrorist. That's what angers me about those ignorant fools. They won't listen to anyone, not even McCain.

I am sure it goes both ways, but I rarely hear negative attacks from Obama supporters to McCain, at least not as widespread...now about Palin its a different story, but those are usually facts, or exaggerations of facts if anything.

ETA: This picture (http://www.time.com/time/picturesoftheweek/0,29409,1848841,00.html) made me laugh :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 24, 2008, 01:36:40 PM
I don't remember where I saw it, but there's a celeb that had Obama's face painted onto her fingernails so you could see it when she waves.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: jenn on October 24, 2008, 01:51:30 PM
Don't know if they're the celebs you were talking about, but Beyonce, her sister Solange, and Eve (http://platformlaunchaction.blogspot.com/2008/10/eve-rocks-obama-minx-nails.html) have them done as well.

Photo, spoilered for size:

(click to show/hide)

Way to support him, ladies. But that thumb constantly staring at you is ever-so-slightly creepy..  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on October 25, 2008, 07:28:47 PM
I'm in Vegas working for Obama this weekend and went to the event held today.  It was awesome to see him on the flesh and when someone fainted, he stopped his speech to get the person help. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on October 25, 2008, 07:33:57 PM
I'm in Vegas working for Obama this weekend and went to the event held today.  It was awesome to see him on the flesh and when someone fainted, he stopped his speech to get the person help. 

Someone fainted at his East Lansing rally and he also stopped to ask if someone had fainted, had a long distance conversation with that section of the crowd, and then requested help to be sent over.

Guess it happens a lot at his rallies.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on October 26, 2008, 07:52:27 AM
He's going to be in Philly on Tuesday.  I have to figure out a way to go.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on October 28, 2008, 02:27:51 PM
(http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/large/0180-0810-2813-1341_obama_door_close_mccain.gif) (http://www.clipartof.com)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on October 28, 2008, 02:31:45 PM
Awesome!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cheeb on October 28, 2008, 03:34:22 PM
Love it!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on October 28, 2008, 08:12:37 PM
Somebody left a deer head, with the antlers cut off so it would resemble a donkey, at the Obama campaign office in Colorado Springs. 

I'll be so happy when this is all over. 

"Politics:" from the root words poly (many) and ticks (blood-sucking parasites).    :D


Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: madhatter on October 28, 2008, 09:08:10 PM
Gah.

I'm sorry, but living in the heart of the Bible Belt...I'm so ready for this to be over.

As someone's verbally accosting me and harassing me about supporting Obama, I asked him, "Shane, why are you voting for McCain?"

"Well, for starters, he's white. And I don't want that damn Arab Muslim n***** running this country."
"Excuse me?! Did you really just use that word?!" My face literally looked like this:  :o
"Yes."
"Why the HELL would you use that word. You know I find it offensive."
"Well, they use it. I hear it at school!"
"And that gives you the right to use it in front of me, when you know it's offensive to me?"
"Yes."

I was SO angry.  >:(
I hate how closed-minded people are.
And that people have a) the gall to compare Obama to Hitler and b) joke about his assassination, especially with that plan in Alabama that was discovered yesterday.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on October 28, 2008, 09:11:14 PM
I REALLY hate that the front page of Yahoo is basically projecting a winner already.  Since earlier this week. 

Way to encourage everyone to get out & vote guys.  Nice job.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on October 29, 2008, 08:34:00 AM
Quote
Someone fainted at his East Lansing rally and he also stopped to ask if someone had fainted, had a long distance conversation with that section of the crowd, and then requested help to be sent over.

Guess it happens a lot at his rallies.
I was at a Bill Clinton whistle stop rally when he was running for re-election.  A pregnant lady who was very near the front almost fainted and he insisted that she be brought onto his train so his physician could attend her.  I think  standing for hours at these things can be a bit much for some folks.  It probably really does happen all the time.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on October 29, 2008, 08:40:35 AM
Gah.

I'm sorry, but living in the heart of the Bible Belt...I'm so ready for this to be over.

As someone's verbally accosting me and harassing me about supporting Obama, I asked him, "Shane, why are you voting for McCain?"

"Well, for starters, he's white. And I don't want that damn Arab Muslim n***** running this country."
"Excuse me?! Did you really just use that word?!" My face literally looked like this:  :o
"Yes."
"Why the HELL would you use that word. You know I find it offensive."
"Well, they use it. I hear it at school!"
"And that gives you the right to use it in front of me, when you know it's offensive to me?"
"Yes."

I was SO angry.  >:(
I hate how closed-minded people are.
And that people have a) the gall to compare Obama to Hitler and b) joke about his assassination, especially with that plan in Alabama that was discovered yesterday.

Yikes!  This election really brings out the ugly in people.  It's sad. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: jazzfan on October 29, 2008, 09:02:43 AM
OMG, zerohhero, that's hilarious.  You rock.

I'm so ready for the election to be over so that legislative branch will be forced to actually work on this countries' problems instead of flap their jaws about them.

Quote
Yikes!  This election really brings out the ugly in people
.

The quest for power is always ugly.  There's a great Lincoln quote I've always liked that goes something like,
"Most men can stand adversity.  If you want to test a man's character, give him power."

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on October 29, 2008, 09:06:32 AM

The quest for power is always ugly.  There's a great Lincoln quote I've always liked that goes something like,
"Most men can stand adversity.  If you want to test a man's character, give him power."



I'm not even talking about the candidates.  I'm talking about the average Joe (so to speak) and the racism and bigotry and ignorance and stupidity that seems to be seeping out of every corner.  It's disheartening.  And it seems a lot worse than it ever was in previous elections.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 29, 2008, 09:31:25 AM
One of my kids is convinced that McCain is the right person to vote for after seeing a McCain commercial that said basically "Obama will raise your taxes."  So far, no explanation about how political commercials are just like any other commercials, where they're trying to sell you something any way they can, is getting through to the kid.  I don't care which candidate my non-voting children like, but don't base it on what the other candidate has said about them!

I don't discuss politics much in real life, and if I do, I'm pretty carefull.  I don't wear my voting plans on my sleeve, so to speak.  No bumper stickers, no signs in the yard, etc.  There are crazies out there on both sides, I'm sure, and I really don't want them taking offense at my position and burning Utica (or my house) to the ground.  Maybe it's cowardly to stay quiet and just vote how I want to vote without trying to convince others, but it works for me.

I'll be glad when the election is over.  I'm really tired of seeing ads from a nearby state's senatorial race.  It's not personal mud-slinging, but it is negative attack ads about what the candidates have done in the past on the job.  I don't need to figure out which candidate is better and who's misrepresenting the other more, because I can't vote for either of them anyway.  But I'm sick of watching them duke it out.  (Hmm...maybe a cage match... ;D)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: jazzfan on October 29, 2008, 09:35:23 AM
Quote
I'm talking about the average Joe (so to speak) and the racism and bigotry and ignorance and stupidity that seems to be seeping out of every corner.  It's disheartening.  And it seems a lot worse than it ever was in previous elections.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you have to look at the big picture.  No matter what your personal political leanings are, the very fact that an African American person is probably going to be the next US President means that our nation has progressed tremendously in the realm of civil rights over the last 50 years.  

I live in the south, and the other day I saw a pickup with a rebel flag embeded in the back windshield with an Obama bumper sticker on the bumper.  It made me smile because I love it so much when stereotypes get shattered.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: khand3stooges on October 29, 2008, 10:29:34 AM
I am ready for this to be over also.  I also don't like to talk about politics that much.  My husband loves to so I have been more involved with this election.  I'm in the minority on who I'm voting for but I am very respectful of everyones opinions.  I believe that is the great priviledge we have of living here.  I am teaching my kids that everyone has the right to choose who they believe will better the country.  I am so sick of all the bad mouthing of each other.  That is why I don't like politics.  Just tell me what you are going to do and not what is wrong with the other person.  I can figure that out on my own.  The only really good thing that has come from this is more Americans care and are going to vote.  I'm happy for that.  Whoever wins I will support as the leader of the country.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on October 29, 2008, 12:20:11 PM
Signs of the end of civilization:  ‘I Voted' stickers get the boot (http://www.newsherald.com/news/stickers_68584___article.html/voted_election.html)
Quote
LYNN HAVEN — If you want to prove you voted in Bay County, don't count on getting an "I Voted" sticker at the polls for evidence.

Bay County Supervisor of Elections Mark Andersen announced Thursday the "I Voted" stickers will not be distributed in any future election. The process became a liability, he said, after complaints surfaced from voters who did not want to be physically touched by election workers.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 29, 2008, 12:33:52 PM
I don't recall ever getting an "I voted" sticker.  It seems to me to be an unnecessary step to add to the process, and an unnecessary expense.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on October 29, 2008, 01:03:43 PM
We get the little stickers. I like them. In my previous life when I was a teacher, I felt proud wearing my sticker in front of my students. Plus, I could give them a short civics lesson.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on October 29, 2008, 01:11:19 PM
I agree it could be a good thing for a teacher, but it's still more of a luxury item, whereas having enough booths or people manning the voting site is a necessity.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: disadulation on October 29, 2008, 01:37:17 PM
They may not be a necessity, but they are a symbol of voter's pride. I feel privileged to wear mine on Election Day. I'll be disappointed if I don't receive one this year.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on October 29, 2008, 01:50:13 PM
I think of it as peer pressure for a good cause.  "Look, all the cool kids are wearing them!"
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on October 29, 2008, 01:58:19 PM
Who is excited for Obamavision tonight?

*raises hand high* 

I'm actually most curious about what the content will be.  Is it going to be a little fluff piece or is it going to be all policy?  Maybe a combination of both?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on October 29, 2008, 02:03:56 PM
I don't see any upside - he's as high in the polls as he can hope to be state-by-state. And there seems like a potential for downside by annoying people with delayed shows and coming across as too in the public's face.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: disadulation on October 29, 2008, 02:14:30 PM
I think of it as peer pressure for a good cause.  "Look, all the cool kids are wearing them!"

I certainly don't wear mine to pressure others to vote. Sure, it disappoints me that there are people who feel their voice isn't important enough to be heard, but I'm not going to coerce, or pressure, anyone to do something they truly don't want to do.

I don't think it's any different from Catholics wearing their ashes on Ash Wednesday, or the striped rectangle stickers and plates that police officers and fire fighters put on their cars.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on October 29, 2008, 03:32:43 PM
I don't see any upside - he's as high in the polls as he can hope to be state-by-state. And there seems like a potential for downside by annoying people with delayed shows and coming across as too in the public's face.

I agree with the too-in-the-public's face thing, but if anyone is like "OMG I can't watch [whatever show] because Obama's on, I CAN NEVER VOTE FOR HIM NOW!!!", I don't think they were voting for him in the first place. At least, I'd hope so.  :-\

I don't think it's either negative, or all that positive. I hope it's an extended version of this commercial they show all the time here in PA with Obama hugging a lot of people.  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on October 29, 2008, 04:20:02 PM
I imagine it'll just be him laying out his plans for the economy, health care, taxes, and Iraq because I think there's still a lot of confusion among some on what exactly he's proposing. (Especially on taxes . . . Though that tax calculator he has on his sight is cool. My mom, under his plan, would get $500.00 in tax breaks and only $150.00 under McCain's plan. Assuming the tax calculator isn't lying to me.) My bet would be that it's a long version of those commercials where he's just talking straight in the camera on one issue.

I think it's kind of cool that he's doing this. It's a real throw back and he kind of reminds me of a bygone era of politics (that I've, uh, only read about in books), in a good way.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 31, 2008, 01:17:53 PM
Tired of having your yard signs stolen? This guy was! (http://perezhilton.com/2008-10-31-mccain-will-electrify-you-literally)

Quote
A resident of Chapel Hill, N.C., was very upset that someone kept stealing his McCain-Palin campaign signs from his yard.

So, Shawn Turschak decided to do something about it! And, being an electrical engineer really helped.

Earlier this week, Turschak decided to hook up a third sign to a power source belonging to an electric pet fence. He also hooked up a surveillance camera to catch the thief.

And, to everyone's surprise, this time around it was a 9 year-old boy, with an Obama-Biden sign in his hand, that grabbed the McCain sign and got a jolt of electricity.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on October 31, 2008, 01:19:41 PM
(http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/large/0180-0810-3112-0548_foolmeister3.gif) (http://www.clipartof.com)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on October 31, 2008, 02:39:06 PM
Tired of having your yard signs stolen? This guy was! (http://perezhilton.com/2008-10-31-mccain-will-electrify-you-literally)

Quote
A resident of Chapel Hill, N.C., was very upset that someone kept stealing his McCain-Palin campaign signs from his yard.

So, Shawn Turschak decided to do something about it! And, being an electrical engineer really helped.

Earlier this week, Turschak decided to hook up a third sign to a power source belonging to an electric pet fence. He also hooked up a surveillance camera to catch the thief.

And, to everyone's surprise, this time around it was a 9 year-old boy, with an Obama-Biden sign in his hand, that grabbed the McCain sign and got a jolt of electricity.

A guy in GA hooked his up to his rifle. And spends all day watching it with his pistol in hand.
Apparently its getting a bit out of hand...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on October 31, 2008, 03:07:34 PM
A guy in GA hooked his up to his rifle. And spends all day watching it with his pistol in hand.
Apparently its getting a bit out of hand...

Wowzers. At least a mild shock (with warning signs) doesn't require the guy to waste that much time stalking his prey. Someone sitting there with a gun is scary and sad that he doesn't have anything better to do with his time.

I saw video of a woman that kept stealing the signs from a particular house. It's not like the people inside are going to change their mind about who to vote for, and frankly, I don't think that yard signs influences anyone driving by to vote a particular way. I'm just not sure what stealing signs accomplishes other than breaking the law.

On my way home from work yesterday, I saw a sign that said "Tina Fey '08".  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on October 31, 2008, 03:47:18 PM
frankly, I don't think that yard signs influences anyone driving by to vote a particular way. I'm just not sure what stealing signs accomplishes other than breaking the law.

Actually, I think it's been shown (though I couldn't direct you to a particular article of study) that frequency of yard signs can influence undecided voters, especially in smaller races. Like, I have no idea how Aquilina is or what she's running for, but her signs are everywhere and since I recognize her name and see how many are supporting her, I just might vote for her too.

(Though that's just an example. I do actually intend to figure out what she's running for.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: i_heart_toby on November 01, 2008, 11:28:43 AM
(http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/large/0180-0810-3112-0548_foolmeister3.gif) (http://www.clipartof.com)

That is great.  Who is that on the far left.  I see Obama, Bill Richardson and Joe Biden, but who is the forth one.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 01, 2008, 01:06:43 PM
That is great.  Who is that on the far left.  I see Obama, Bill Richardson and Joe Biden, but who is the forth one.

It might be Howard Dean but I'm not sure.  I found it on another site.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Bella Lumina on November 01, 2008, 01:16:25 PM
I think it's the governor of Virginia, Tim Kaine.  He of the giant expressive eyebrows...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 01, 2008, 01:30:46 PM
I think it's the governor of Virginia, Tim Kaine.  He of the giant expressive eyebrows...

I think you're right. Thanks. :)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/zerohhero/vr7wonjpg.png)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/zerohhero/barack_subliminal-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 01, 2008, 03:06:09 PM
(http://i34.tinypic.com/25hmgdj.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: colette on November 02, 2008, 08:31:27 AM
Seriously, from the You Can't Make This Stuff Up file:

Palin takes prank call from fake French president (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081102/ap_en_ce/canada_palin_prank_call)

Couple of excerpts:

Quote
Audette, posing as Sarkozy, speaks in an exaggerated French accent and drops ample hints that the conversation is a joke. But Palin seemingly does not pick up on them.

He tells Palin one of his favorite pastimes is hunting, also a passion of the 44-year-old Alaska governor.

"I just love killing those animals. Mmm, mmm, take away life, that is so fun," the fake Sarkozy says.


Quote
When Audette refers to Canadian singer Steph Carse as Canada's prime minister, Palin replies: "Well, he's doing fine and yeah, when you come into a position underestimated it gives you an opportunity to prove the pundits and the critics wrong. You work that much harder." Canada's prime minister is Stephen Harper.

Quote
The Sarkozy impersonator tells Palin his wife is "so hot in bed" and then informs her that Bruni has written a song for her about Joe the Plumber entitled "Du rouge a levres sur une cochonne" — which translates as "Lipstick on a Pig"

And yet, Palin doesn't realize she's being pranked until the radio show hosts tell her who they are at the end of the convo. For realsies. (And btw, listen to the audio...the fake accents are just this side of Pepe le Pew.)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. ???

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 02, 2008, 08:38:42 AM
That's just sad.  I liked this final word:

Quote
Obama's campaign spokesman Robert Gibbs, commenting on the prank, said: "I'm glad we check out our calls before we hand the phone to Barack Obama."
  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 02, 2008, 01:02:16 PM
To be fair, those are two idiotic comedians have done this repeatedly to many people in power and other people who look otherwise inaccessible.  I've never found them funny (they've been on the radio for years) and they make me ashamed to be from Quebec.

Quote
"Du rouge a levres sur une cochonne" — which translates as "Lipstick on a Pig"

Cochonne is one of those words with 2 meanings: it means a female pig but also is a colloquial word meaning someone who's really errr... dirty in bed.  Oy.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 02, 2008, 02:15:25 PM
Without a doubt those guys are jerks to do this kind of thing.  It's also really nasty timing.  I certainly don't want McCain and Palin to win the election, but it seems like these "comedians" either wanted to sabotage the campaign or didn't give a damn if they did.  They clearly have no class. 

It doesn't surprise me that you don't find them funny, MA.  Sadly, there are jerks everywhere; I don't think anyone would hold Quebec responsible.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 02, 2008, 02:56:42 PM
(http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/large/0180-0811-0213-4219_palin.gif) (http://www.clipartof.com)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 03, 2008, 12:40:11 AM
Sorry, Obama supporters. (http://www.cnnbcvideo.com/index.html?nid=xgb2gYxt7.4yXAOHtN07KjIxMjQ0&referred_by=13651867-8GlXwsx)

My friend was kind enough to put my name in the video she customized. I thought it was kind of cool. For the record, I promise that I will be voting this Tuesday. I certainly don't want Bill O singing my praises.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 03, 2008, 01:05:11 AM
Election recap: http://thisfuckingelection.com/

The url name is NSFW but the content at the site is pretty much safe.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 03, 2008, 09:09:50 AM
via obama08 LJ comm

Yes We Can, Les Mis style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3ijYVyhnn0) (YouTube)

This comment probably belongs in the YKYOWTO thread, but when I first saw the still frame from this, I thought it was an Office parody, because the lead singer dude, is a total Halpert doppleganger.   Jimsmiley
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 03, 2008, 09:49:30 AM
A retrospective of all the covers of the campaign, including foreign publications.

http://www.foliomag.com/slideshows/covers-campaign

There were a bunch of interesting and amusing ones that I hadn't seen before.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: i_heart_toby on November 03, 2008, 10:10:18 AM
That Tiger Beat one can not be real.  I refuse to believe it.

(On the off chance that it is, where do you think I could find a copy?  You know, for a friend...)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 03, 2008, 11:26:46 AM
Proof that there really is no excuse for not voting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20081103/sc_space/astronautstovotefromspacestation (http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20081103/sc_space/astronautstovotefromspacestation)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: vailfiregirl on November 03, 2008, 12:06:49 PM
I don't think this has been posted here, but this is a cute video of Atlanta middle schoolers singing about the election.  If you click More Info on the right, the words are posted, though I don't think the words to the first verse are there.

Vote However You Like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orXkzU6wEsE)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 03, 2008, 01:27:31 PM
Seriously, from the You Can't Make This Stuff Up file:

Palin takes prank call from fake French president (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081102/ap_en_ce/canada_palin_prank_call)

I thought that was freakin' hilarious. Laughed all the way through.  *shrug* Chacun a son goute.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 03, 2008, 02:07:56 PM
Seriously, from the You Can't Make This Stuff Up file:

Palin takes prank call from fake French president (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081102/ap_en_ce/canada_palin_prank_call)

I thought that was freakin' hilarious. Laughed all the way through.  *shrug* Chacun a son goute.

This is a very popular comedy radio show in Montreal so you're not alone in finding this funny.  I tend not to find prank phone calls funny so I just felt really embarrassed for her.  (Oh, and just so you know, it's goût, no "e".)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: colette on November 03, 2008, 02:16:04 PM
On the one hand, I didn't find it particularly funny either. On the other, having listened to the tape and hearing how glaringly obvious it was that it was a prank call, I'm appalled Palin didn't realize, and continued to chat as if it were for real.

I guess that makes it a wash for me.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: qwerty on November 03, 2008, 03:10:03 PM
(http://www.clipartof.com/images/free_hosting/large/0180-0810-3112-0548_foolmeister3.gif) (http://www.clipartof.com)

Haha! That's awesome
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 03, 2008, 04:10:47 PM
Vote tomorrow and you get free Coffee from Starbucks: Free Coffee (http://www.starbucks.com/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 03, 2008, 04:39:15 PM
Vote tomorrow and you get free Coffee from Starbucks: Free Coffee (http://www.starbucks.com/)

I thought it was a federal offense to solicit votes by promising material reward.


 partyhaticon

I'm looking forward to tomorrow: a nation of overcaffeinated voters. Imagine what we could get done!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Modern Girl on November 03, 2008, 04:50:05 PM
Vote tomorrow and you get free Coffee from Starbucks: Free Coffee (http://www.starbucks.com/)

I thought it was a federal offense to solicit votes by promising material reward.

 partyhaticon

I'm looking forward to tomorrow: a nation of overcaffeinated voters. Imagine what we could get done!

Krispy Kreme (http://www.krispykreme.com/) is doing it too... offering a free donut, that is!

...a nation of overcaffeinated and over-sugared voters! smileyleaves
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 03, 2008, 05:00:05 PM
How do they know the person voted?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: samsmom on November 03, 2008, 05:03:23 PM
How do they know the person voted?

You have to show your "I voted" sticker.  I voted 2 weeks ago at the mall.  I didn't get a coffee and donut.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 03, 2008, 05:04:00 PM
Sad news: Barack Obama's grandmother dies (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27522679/)

I have been reading more and more about how important of a person she was in his life. And it's seems so tragic (and poetic) that she passed away on the eve of the election.


How do they know the person voted?
Show them your little sticker if you get one.  Also on the more devious side you could go more than once.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 03, 2008, 05:10:14 PM
As I mentioned before, I don't recall ever getting an "I voted" sticker.  Not that it matters.  I don't need to drive 15 minutes (30 round-trip) for a free coffee when I have a nice pot of Starbucks at home.  Like, "Gas ain't free!" (/Dwight) ;)  It's nice that they're doing that, though.

Also, those of you who frequent the Getting in Shape thread...resist the free donut!  Resist the free donut! bighugsicon

And now about to post, I see Alamos' post.  That is sad.  Providing he wins tomorrow, that would have been a wonderful thing for her to have seen.  It's good he was able to see her recently, but it was such a rushed trip.  I hope he can get to the services; it might be tough if they're in Hawaii, which I think is where he visited her last week.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 03, 2008, 05:10:48 PM
Sad news: Barack Obama's grandmother dies (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27522679/)

I have been reading more and more about how important of a person she was in his life. And it's seems so tragic (and poetic) that she passed away on the eve of the election.


I was hoping that both she and Ted Kennedy would live long enough to see the outcome of the election whatever it is. If Obama wins, it certainly will be bittersweet.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 03, 2008, 06:11:20 PM
Sad news: Barack Obama's grandmother dies (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27522679/)

I have been reading more and more about how important of a person she was in his life. And it's seems so tragic (and poetic) that she passed away on the eve of the election.

That is very sad.  I guess it's good she got to see him get there at least. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: aneehan95 on November 03, 2008, 06:32:23 PM
And now about to post, I see Alamos' post.  That is sad.  Providing he wins tomorrow, that would have been a wonderful thing for her to have seen.  It's good he was able to see her recently, but it was such a rushed trip.  I hope he can get to the services; it might be tough if they're in Hawaii, which I think is where he visited her last week.

Yes, he came to Hawaii to visit her. It made me so upset that one of our local news stations were outside of his grandmother's apartment and the media practically overtook him as he walked into the complex. He was visiting his sick grandmother; do they not know what privacy is?

It's probably going to be even harder after the election. Condolences to the family.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: DunderSnob on November 03, 2008, 08:02:32 PM
Vote tomorrow and you get free Coffee from Starbucks: Free Coffee (http://www.starbucks.com/)

I thought it was a federal offense to solicit votes by promising material reward.

 partyhaticon

I'm looking forward to tomorrow: a nation of overcaffeinated voters. Imagine what we could get done!

Krispy Kreme (http://www.krispykreme.com/) is doing it too... offering a free donut, that is!

...a nation of overcaffeinated and over-sugared voters! smileyleaves

I mailed in my ballot last week, where is my friggen Krispy Kreme? My state doesn't have polls, we have mail in only ballots. You can go drop them off tomorrow if you missed the mail in deadline though. It's really nice actually, we don't have to take out time to go vote. We just kick back on our couches and vote anytime we want. I think every other state should do it. I think we'd get better voter turn out.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 03, 2008, 08:12:46 PM
I did a mail in ballot, and I have my I Voted sticker :). However, I shall pass on the donut, no matter how much I want it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 03, 2008, 08:38:18 PM
I'll be walking to my polling place a little after 8:30 tomorrow morning. Twelve hours from now.

Forecast? Sunny and in the low 70s. WTF?! (I think it's a sign from God. Or, I would think that if I weren't, you know, militantly agnostic.)

Then, afterwards, I'll be out canvassing, making sure the Obama supporters have voted, and making sure people know where they go to vote and have a ride there if they need it.

It'll be fun to relax when it's all over, you betcha.

DunderSnob, everybody where you live mails in? What state, if you don't mind answering? It kind of blows my mind.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: DunderSnob on November 03, 2008, 08:47:16 PM
Oregon, we've been doing it for about 10 years now.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 03, 2008, 08:48:53 PM
I'm excited for election night.  I plan to park it on the couch all night and flip back and forth between news channels.  I always love it.

Also...I was proud because my 8 yr old wants to come with me to vote.  I had planned on going during lunch but I think I'll wait until tomorrow night so she can come with, I just hope I'm not cutting it too close since we can't go until 7pm.  Luckily the polling place is only a few streets away. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 03, 2008, 08:49:52 PM
Oregon, we've been doing it for about 10 years now.

TWSS
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: DunderSnob on November 03, 2008, 08:51:04 PM
Oh, I've been doing it much longer than that! :D :D

Ha, ha, ha..good one zerohhero.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 03, 2008, 10:46:03 PM
This link was posted over at the Haven, an X-Files message board. I thought it was interesting to see the results.

If the world could vote. (http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 03, 2008, 10:51:15 PM
I'm excited for election night.  I plan to park it on the couch all night and flip back and forth between news channels.  I always love it.

Also...I was proud because my 8 yr old wants to come with me to vote.  I had planned on going during lunch but I think I'll wait until tomorrow night so she can come with, I just hope I'm not cutting it too close since we can't go until 7pm.  Luckily the polling place is only a few streets away. 

I am news junkie and took the day of off work to stay home. I plan to have the news on and do some craft projects will the little one is in school. 

Good for you taking your daughter tomorrow! I plan to take my almost 5 year-old w/ me to the voting booth tomorrow. I am actually looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 03, 2008, 11:02:16 PM
This link was posted over at the Haven, an X-Files message board. I thought it was interesting to see the results.

If the world could vote. (http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/)

Very interesting!  I see almost 90,000 of my fellow Canadians voted and are behind Barack at 88%.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 04, 2008, 02:31:26 AM
The first official elections results are in and Obama has soundly defeated McCain.    ;)

Quote

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama emerged victorious in the first election returns of the 2008 presidential race, winning 15 of 21 votes cast in Dixville Notch, New Hampshire.

People in the village in New Hampshire's northeast corner voted just after midnight Tuesday.

It was the first time since 1968 that the village leaned Democratic in an election. 

Obama's rival, Republican John McCain, won 6 votes.

A full 100 percent of registered voters in the village cast ballots. And the votes didn't take long to tally.

The town, home to around 75 residents, has opened its polls shortly after midnight each Election Day since 1960, drawing national media attention for being the first place in the country to make its presidential preferences known.

source (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/04/dixville.notch/?iref=mpstoryview)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 04, 2008, 02:54:41 AM
Track your races... (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/your.races/index.html)

You can set up 35 or fewer races (national, state, local) to track.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 04, 2008, 03:40:27 AM
This link was posted over at the Haven, an X-Files message board. I thought it was interesting to see the results.

If the world could vote. (http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/)

Very interesting!  I see almost 90,000 of my fellow Canadians voted and are behind Barack at 88%.

Not sure how much credence to put in an Internet vote; how many old geezers non-technically inclined voters are likely to vote in an Internet poll?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 04, 2008, 09:09:38 AM
I'm not sure how reliable this is, but on Regis and Kelly Live they were just saying that Starbucks is giving anyone a free cup of coffee today; no proof-of-voting is needed.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 04, 2008, 09:13:10 AM
http://www.kirotv.com/news/17885256/detail.html

A statement from Tara Darrow of Starbucks says, "We've been excited by the number of positive responses received about our free coffee offer. To ensure we are in compliance with election law, we are extending our offer to all customers who request a tall brewed coffee.

Or as one official put it:

Election officials for the state of Washington told KIRO 7 that rewarding voters with free coffee is illegal.

"No good deed goes unpunished," said Nick Handy, director of elections.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 04, 2008, 09:15:52 AM
It's illegal to give free coffee to voters, so they'll just give free coffee to everyone. :)  Good for them.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 04, 2008, 09:16:48 AM
I would think in that case that it's also illegal to give people I voted stickers. How is that not a reward?

Anyway, yeah. Good on Starbucks. I wouldn't be surprised if rivals like Dunkin announce something similar.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 04, 2008, 09:48:48 AM
Chick-Fil-A is giving out free sandwiches with an I Voted sticker.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 04, 2008, 09:59:34 AM
This link was posted over at the Haven, an X-Files message board. I thought it was interesting to see the results.

If the world could vote. (http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/)

Very interesting!  I see almost 90,000 of my fellow Canadians voted and are behind Barack at 88%.

Not sure how much credence to put in an Internet vote; how many old geezers non-technically inclined voters are likely to vote in an Internet poll?

The point of interest really isn't to get a completely accurate poll. Skewed or not, it's interesting to get an idea of what residents of other countries think about our election.

In other news, I voted! I was the 218th person in my polling place to cast my ballot. I really like the system at our polling place: No holes to punch and no electronic malfunctions. You simply draw a line between two arrows next to the name of the candidate. It was a good time.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: WhichOneIsPam on November 04, 2008, 10:06:48 AM
Chick-Fil-A is giving out free sandwiches with an I Voted sticker.

I'm not sure how reliable this is, but on Regis and Kelly Live they were just saying that Starbucks is giving anyone a free cup of coffee today; no proof-of-voting is needed.

Would it be sad for me to go around collecting free food?

nevermind, shame is an overrated emotion  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 04, 2008, 10:11:16 AM
Chick-Fil-A is giving out free sandwiches with an I Voted sticker.

I'm not sure how reliable this is, but on Regis and Kelly Live they were just saying that Starbucks is giving anyone a free cup of coffee today; no proof-of-voting is needed.

Would it be sad for me to go around collecting free food?

nevermind, shame is an overrated emotion  :D

Go for it, WOIP!  I think Ben & Jerry's has something too.  That's also from Regis & Kelly, which is apparently where I get all my "news." :-[ ::)

So, Starbucks, Chik-Fil-A, Krispy Kreme, and Ben & Jerry's.  Vote and imbibe thousands of free calories today! ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 04, 2008, 10:13:45 AM
Quote
Election officials for the state of Washington told KIRO 7 that rewarding voters with free coffee is illegal.
 Good Lord.  
 I get free ice cream when I take my tax returns to my local post office on the evening of April 15.   But I dont live in Washington.  ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on November 04, 2008, 10:15:46 AM
Chick-Fil-A is giving out free sandwiches with an I Voted sticker.

Now I'm sad that I threw away my sticker. I voted 2 weeks ago and I threw it away while I was doing laundry this past weekend.

Quote
In other news, I voted! I was the 218th person in my polling place to cast my ballot. I really like the system at our polling place: No holes to punch and no electronic malfunctions. You simply draw a line between two arrows next to the name of the candidate. It was a good time.

I've heard horror stories about the line ballots. Personally, I think I'm smart enough to draw a line between the beginning and end arrow, but on NPR, a volunteer was telling the newsperson all the crazy things people did b/c they didn't understand what to do.  ::) Ours was one of the ones where you had to fill in the bubble like a scantron machine.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: WhichOneIsPam on November 04, 2008, 10:16:20 AM
Quote
So, Starbucks, Chik-Fil-A, Krispy Kreme, and Ben & Jerry's.  Vote and imbibe thousands of free calories today! ;)

Yeah, for some reason no one is handing out free salads? hmm...

I guess I'll have to make due  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on November 04, 2008, 10:18:31 AM
Chick-Fil-A is giving out free sandwiches with an I Voted sticker.

I'm not sure how reliable this is, but on Regis and Kelly Live they were just saying that Starbucks is giving anyone a free cup of coffee today; no proof-of-voting is needed.

Would it be sad for me to go around collecting free food?
Just be sure to share the wealth.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 04, 2008, 10:18:50 AM
McCain should have his campaign give out free food before people vote. So that voters have to leave the line to go to the bathroom and lose their spot.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 04, 2008, 10:19:38 AM
Quote
In other news, I voted! I was the 218th person in my polling place to cast my ballot. I really like the system at our polling place: No holes to punch and no electronic malfunctions. You simply draw a line between two arrows next to the name of the candidate. It was a good time.

I've heard horror stories about the line ballots. Personally, I think I'm smart enough to draw a line between the beginning and end arrow, but on NPR, a volunteer was telling the newsperson all the crazy things people did b/c they didn't understand what to do.  ::) Ours was one of the ones where you had to fill in the bubble like a scantron machine.

People don't understand how to draw a line? Because that's literally all it is. The line isn't even an inch long. Those people must not have had someone explaining what to do before getting their ballots. Maybe it's so simple, people think there's something they're missing. We were actually with two people who had never voted with the line ballots before and they were like, "That's really all you have to do?"
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: vailfiregirl on November 04, 2008, 10:32:41 AM
I went to Chick-fil-a this morning after I voted (with my sticker on) and did not get a free biscuit!  I should demand a refund.  Or not. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: nomadshan on November 04, 2008, 10:42:00 AM
Happy Election Day!!!  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 04, 2008, 11:10:57 AM
McCain should have his campaign give out free food before people vote. So that voters have to leave the line to go to the bathroom and lose their spot.

That reminds me, my kid told me in our line that he had to pee.  I told him no. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on November 04, 2008, 11:40:04 AM
I've never been more proud to be an American then I was while waiting for half an hour at 7 in the morning so I could vote in my first presidential election. 

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on November 04, 2008, 11:57:26 AM
Just got back from voting.  Time to vent.

ONE: My section of the alphabet was the ONLY one with a line.  The other three tables had maybe three people waiting at any one time.  I couldn't even SEE my section's table when I got in line.  Really now, can't the election board look at who is registered to vote and distribute the sections more evenly?  (If I kept my maiden name I could have been done in 10 minutes.  Grumble.)

TWO:  The person in front of me in line and the person behind me in line, BOTH of them on their cell phones, even though it clearly states NO CELL PHONES all over the place, even with the little pictograph in case you don't read English.  ARGH!

On the plus side, my mom came over to watch the HooBabies so I didn't have to wrangle them while I waited.

(4 years ago on election day, it was unseasonably warm (luckily), so waiting with a 3-month-old HooBaby in the stroller wasn't too bad.  Except that it took 2 hours to vote.)

Edited to make sense.  It only took 45 mins this year -- 2 hours was 4 years ago. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 04, 2008, 12:20:58 PM
This link was posted over at the Haven, an X-Files message board. I thought it was interesting to see the results.

If the world could vote. (http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/)

Very interesting!  I see almost 90,000 of my fellow Canadians voted and are behind Barack at 88%.

Not sure how much credence to put in an Internet vote; how many old geezers non-technically inclined voters are likely to vote in an Internet poll?

Oh, of course.  It's a self-selecting sample, not by any means a representative sample of the country, I am sure.  I just thought it was fun. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: macolly on November 04, 2008, 12:35:50 PM
Yikes 2 hours to vote!! I can't imagine waiting that long.

I was the 14th person to vote today, and I was in and out in a flash.  ;D

I love small town america
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 01:10:02 PM
Brusters is giving out ice cream with a discount, they aren't getting on the free bandwagon.

Lines have been anywhere from nonexistant to hours so far, depending on the area. I wish I had waited to vote (in theory) because I love the sense of satisfaction that comes from it. But, also, I know I don't have hours to wait in line. But I voted, and my vote counts, and I'm crossing my fingers for the results I want.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 04, 2008, 01:22:04 PM
On her blog Jenna has put her toe into today's political waters:
    
Quote

Rock the Vote!

Just a friendly reminder to get out to the polls and VOTE!

Feel free to comment/debate below but one rule applies - you can't post a plug for your candidate unless you voted!

Happy Tuesday!

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 04, 2008, 02:02:46 PM
I voted early because I had to help my mom, who is nearly blind. We had gone over the ballot last night and I helped her mark her choices. However, we have those connect-the-line type ballots, and it was impossible for her to read it. I had to mark it for her. One of the poll workers tried to give us a hard time about it, but I had printed out the California Secretary of State's bulletin about disabled voters and gave it to her. No problem after that. Then I voted.

I teased my mom that she could have voted twice, because the local registrar sent her TWO notices of a polling place, at different locations. But she said she couldn't handle all the extra coffee. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 04, 2008, 02:25:09 PM
Two polling notices?  Heh. Vote early, vote often.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 04, 2008, 02:28:31 PM
I'm such a procrastinator that even though I've had my mail-in ballot for the last month, I never got around to mailing it, and dropped it off today.  The ballot here (Colorado) is huge this time! Which doesn't excuse my inability to buy stamps at some point last week  :D  but it's okay.  I was going to drop it off last Friday but I literally couldn't get near the drop-off place because there were so many cars there.  Today, though, they had tables set up outside the place and I didn't even have to get out of the car.  Done in twenty seconds. Fabulous!

According to local news well over half of registered voters in CO took advantage of early voting so we'll probably know how things turned out pretty early.  It was definitely cool to be a 'battleground' state. Usually Colorado is ignored for its measly eight electoral votes, and I have never seen so many visits from presidential candidates as we've had this year.  It makes a big difference, I think, and inspires people to get out and vote when they know their vote actually matters. 

Trivia: why we vote on Tuesdays (http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepoliticalsystem/a/whenwevote.htm)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 04, 2008, 02:31:50 PM
I've never been more proud to be an American then I was while waiting for half an hour at 7 in the morning so I could vote in my first presidential election. 



Good for you and congratulations!

Where I work is a polling place today and from what I've observed the lines haven't been more than 10-15 people deep.  But it is midday.

After I get off (work, that is), I may go over to my neighborhood polling place just to see what it's like since I early voted.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 04, 2008, 03:02:50 PM
Hee - I just voted.  It was easy - the line was short for my last name - I think it took me less than 10 minutes to get in and out.  I also took an "I voted" sticker for my hubby - he's British so he has to live vicariously through my voting experience. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 04, 2008, 03:05:30 PM
Hee - I just voted.  It was easy - the line was short for my last name - I think it took me less than 10 minutes to get in and out.  I also took an "I voted" sticker for my hubby - he's British so he has to live vicariously through my voting experience. 

Then he can't have the free coffee. Buy him a cup of tea. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 04, 2008, 04:51:10 PM
Voted this morning. Took about a half hour in line and I had to take a cheat sheet with me for the 12! propositions. But the husband and I voted together so that was nice.

Had a co-worker who stood in line for 2.5 hours! His precinct ran out of ballots around noon. Yikes.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 04, 2008, 04:53:00 PM
Voted this morning. Took about a half hour in line and I had to take a cheat sheet with me for the 12! propositions. But the husband and I voted together so that was nice.

Had a co-worker who stood in line for 2.5 hours! His precinct ran out of ballots around noon. Yikes.

Well, I'm reading that a heavy turnout in CA means good things for liberals, so I guess that's actually a form of good news.

sharky, I envy you voting with your husband. Mine is always on the other side of the political divide. Le sigh.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BlueBustyGal on November 04, 2008, 05:27:54 PM
For those of you with mail-in ballots, is there ever a worry about people stealing ballots from mailboxes? That just seems weird to me.

I work at a church, and we have always been a polling place. I got there at 9:30 and there was barely a line. The rest of the day was no better, cause I kept checking in during the day while I was working. Definitely fewer people turned out than I expected.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: DunderSnob on November 04, 2008, 05:37:48 PM
I've never worried about the stealing of ballots. I always drop mine off at the post office, I never mail anything from my personal mailbox anyway. We always have the option of dropping our ballot off at drop off points around the city if we want to today.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 04, 2008, 05:38:16 PM
My state only has mail-in voting.  I'm not any more worried about someone taking my ballot from my mailbox as I am of someone taking any other important piece of mail - like property tax payments or something.  I tend to drop those types of things off at a mailbox.  My neighborhood is safe, but I just feel safer handling important mail that way.

For my ballot, I dropped it off a ballot box at our local library. 

I have to say, I am a little nostalgic for the voter booth voting that I got to do when I lived in NY.  I also like the idea of being able to take my daughter with me to the booths (when she's a little older).  But voting at home is really convenient and it's nice to be able to read all the ballot measure literature and mark off my ballot comfortably.  And then I can go back and take the time to make sure I didn't make any mistakes.   Overall, I really like voting this way.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 04, 2008, 05:45:57 PM
My state only has mail-in voting.  I'm not any more worried about someone taking my ballot from my mailbox as I am of someone taking any other important piece of mail - like property tax payments or something.  I tend to drop those types of things off at a mailbox.  My neighborhood is safe, but I just feel safer handling important mail that way.

For my ballot, I dropped it off a ballot box at our local library. 

I have to say, I am a little nostalgic for the voter booth voting that I got to do when I lived in NY.  I also like the idea of being able to take my daughter with me to the booths (when she's a little older).  But voting at home is really convenient and it's nice to be able to read all the ballot measure literature and mark off my ballot comfortably.  And then I can go back and take the time to make sure I didn't make any mistakes.   Overall, I really like voting this way.

I agree with both your sentiments, zeebee.  I have always gone to the polls in the past and there's something oddly cathartic about that--it makes me feel like a real American or something.  The curtain, the machine, the "official" feeling of it all.  But in terms of convenience you can't beat the mail-in.  And this year we have so many things on the ballot that I've heard people are taking 2-3 hours to get through the process, whereas I was able to just drop off my ballot and be done in a flash. 

I've used the mail-in on a couple of the last local elections and never really worried about the security of it any more than I do with bills.  If I have anything really important to mail I take it to a post office mailbox.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 04, 2008, 06:09:24 PM
Yeah, going to the voting booth on election day feels like performing a ritual or something.  And it's nice to feel a sense of community with others who are voting.  And I guess there's a bit of that feeling of voter high, or something - definitely more official feeling.  Last time I got to vote in one, the line was only about 20 minutes long, so it was mostly just a pleasant experience. But, if I had to wait hours, that would be pretty crappy, I think. 

The first time I did mail in voting, it didn't really feel "real" to me.  But, I'm over that now.  Plus, I imagine for a lot of first time voters, it's less nerve racking to do mail-in voting b/c you have time to understand the rules and how the voting is supposed to be marked off.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 04, 2008, 06:25:59 PM
Quote
I work at a church, and we have always been a polling place. I got there at 9:30 and there was barely a line. The rest of the day was no better, cause I kept checking in during the day while I was working. Definitely fewer people turned out than I expected.
My polling place is in a church.  My husband and I both voted absentee for the first time in our lives because we were worried about standing in line for hours.  Our state does not have early voting.  I missed the ritual, but I sure liked the convenience.  I wouldnt assume that fewer people means low turnout. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on November 04, 2008, 06:34:43 PM
I think there are a record number of early voters this year in a lot of areas:
Florida (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/florida/news-article.aspx?storyid=122709&provider=rss), Arkansas (http://www.kspr.com/news/local/33835074.html), Ohio (http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/Articles/News/2008/11/04/26247/), California (http://www.marinij.com/ci_10888704). 
I'm sure there are more areas reporting the same thing.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 04, 2008, 06:43:32 PM
That's so great!  I love that so many people are getting out to vote - I read that the number of voters they are expecting - 130 million - will be the largest turnout of the century (the highest so far has been 127 million).

So cool! :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 07:12:03 PM
I'm getting so excited now that results are coming in. So far Obama 3, McCain 8. But more polls are closing.

I'm giddy excited. This is crazy, but so awesome!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 04, 2008, 07:13:54 PM
Our voting was easy (no line once you got to the polls), but there was traffic getting to the parking lot and officers directing traffic.  I've never seen anything like that.  I'm looking forward to seeing the number/percentage of voters in our town as well as across the nation.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cheeb on November 04, 2008, 07:16:19 PM
I'm in Southern California and just returned from voting.  The polling place for me was the auditorium at my son's school.  There were a good number of people voting when I got there.  My son said as he was switching classes throughout the day he noticed a lot of people coming/going through the auditorium.  Warms my heart to know that so many are voting today.  bighugsicon

Congratulations cdgeiger on casting your first ballot!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 04, 2008, 07:26:34 PM
OK, I'm confused.  How can they call a state for Obama or McCain with such a low number of precincts reporting?  They are calling Kentucky for McCain with only 13% of precincts reporting and Obama has 44% and McCain has 55%.  The same with Vermont for Obama. 
I can get calling a state for a candidate without 100% of the precincts reporting, but shouldn't they at least have a majority of the numbers before they do so?
I'm missing something very simple, aren't I?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 07:30:37 PM
It is a bit strange, I guess. With it being that close, it seems like they should wait a bit longer. However, 10% is relatively large. When I was playing with guessing the states, I called a state if it had 4% difference in polls. So I'm guessing its not that far of a jump, especially if its consistent with previous polling.

Georgia polls closed 26 minutes ago. I know its unrealistic to have results yet, but damn, I'm still refreshing the page constantly!

ETA: Oooh, news:
With 0% reporting, McCain at 70%.
(and for Senate - Evil!Chambliss with 63%)

... of course, its just 0% reporting, but, man, I'm excited somethings showing up!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 04, 2008, 07:39:11 PM
I love election night.  So exciting to watch.  I just got back from voting, and I took my 8 yr old with me.  I was so impressed of how much she knew about the candidates, and the process in general.  She was really excited about going to vote and seeing the voting booth.  Good stuff.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 04, 2008, 07:40:39 PM
They can call these based on exit polls and previous polling. Vermont, for example, had Obama ahead with 57% to 36% for McCain. So even though numbers aren't in, it's pretty obvious.

As for California, they just said that it's looking like 75%!!!!!! of Los Angeles eligible voters cast a ballot today. To put that in perspective, the local NBC affiliate said the number of people voting in LA today is higher than the number of eligible voters in each of 41 states.

Not to start a debate, but it puts the electoral college in a much better perspective at the very least. Could you imagine a city like Los Angeles overruling the needs of a state? It may not be foolproof but that's why we have an electoral college that gives smaller states a voice in the process rather than a nationwide popular vote.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 07:42:44 PM
Not to start a debate, but it puts the electoral college in a much better perspective at the very least. Could you imagine a city like Los Angeles overruling the needs of a state? It may not be foolproof but that's why we have an electoral college that gives smaller states a voice in the process.

That at least makes me not hate it as much. I mean, there are some plus sides to it. I just always get frustrated with the fact that my vote for Obama will basically get lost if Georgia goes Republican (likely).
It really is one of those win-lose situations. I know there are plus sides. But sometimes when you're on the losing end of it, it doesn't matter.

I'm still planning on sitting in front of my TV and computer waiting for results until something gets decided... or I fall asleep.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cricket03 on November 04, 2008, 07:48:21 PM
 
Quote
love election night.  So exciting to watch.  I just got back from voting, and I took my 8 yr old with me.  I was so impressed of how much she knew about the candidates, and the process in general.  She was really excited about going to vote and seeing the voting booth.  Good stuff.


That's so exciting that your daughter got to go with you when you voted, Kells. Here in Vermont, for some odd reason, no children (unless they were infants) were allowed to accompany parents into the booths. I'm not quite sure the reasoning, and I felt really bad for the kids who have been constantly hearing about the election for months, but are unable to even been observers to the process. In the library, where I work, we set up a mock election with both real ballots and abridged versions. That way, at least they got to be somewhat involved and were able to see what the actual ballot looked like. I'm interested to see how the kids' results compare to the  national and statewide. Most likely though, the kids will vote similarly to the parents. This is Vermont after all, which is overwhelmingly a pro-Obama state.

In other news, the polls were crazy here, but that's nothing compared to my parents, who stood in line for 2 HOURS in Charleston, SC to cast their vote.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 04, 2008, 07:50:00 PM
I'm kind of excited ... and maybe a little bit crazy. I'm getting ready to head downtown to Obama's rally. They're expecting at least a half million people!  :o My friend (who worked on Obama's campaign) called me last minute and asked if I wanted to go. I figured it's a beautiful night here and what better way to experience an exciting evening that will go down in history (no matter who wins).

I've taken my kids with me to vote in the past but I didn't today because I figured the lines would be shorter while they were at school. It was fun to see so many people from my neighborhood when I went to vote. No matter who you vote for, the experience of democracy can be a unifying thing, if you let it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: i_heart_toby on November 04, 2008, 07:50:50 PM
I would like to be some strength to all you Georgians.  Hopefully Evil!Chambliss will get some karmic retribution if he wins tonight.

ETA: Wendolf, that is so awesome.   Have fun!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: girl7 on November 04, 2008, 08:00:13 PM
Love reading all of your voting stories -- I was happy to see how many of my students were wearing the little, "I voted" stickers today.  (Though one of my classes -- a particularly lively group that I adore -- tried to convince me that we needed to postpone our scheduled reading discussion to have a political debate to help the "undecideds" pick a side.  :D)

Also, this may be a random, stupid thing, but I think it's so great (and touching) to see Luke Russert (Tim Russert's son) commentating on NBC. 

Oh, and as a fellow Georgian, the "Evil!Chambliss" comments are cracking me up.  We have a dog named Max, and occasionally we call him "Maxby Chambliss" just to be silly.   :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 08:02:25 PM
I'm still planning on sitting in front of my TV and computer waiting for results until something gets decided... or I fall asleep.

I hear ya on that last bit, Em. It's almost 1am here, and I'm drinking a *lot* of diet coke to keep me awake as long as I can - thank goodness I'm off this week!

I've gotta say, it's so weird to be this invested in an election I have no say in - I've always been relatively interested in American politics and culture and history and such, and I've been following the election for quite some time, but when I'm not actually taking part in it it's now an almost surreal experience to be watching the results.

Even more so because of the way politics are in the weird little pocket of the world I live in. It pisses me off here so much that I tend to ignore it a bit out of frustration (though I always vote - if I don't like any of the people enough to vote for them, I'll spoil my vote in some way, but the way I see it is people died so I could have the right to vote, so I make sure I get to the polling station even if I figure no one's done enough to deserve my vote), and I don't even know when our next elections are going to be, they're not as set in stone as the US elections. It's pretty special to see how much Americans care about it this year, that so many people have been inspired to take part in democracy, no matter how they vote.

Also - is it just me or is CNN's fancy pants hi tech system screwing up the stats? How are they calling SC for McCain with 1% of the votes in and the stats saying 44 McCain / 55 Obama? God I'm confused...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 04, 2008, 08:07:26 PM
You know, would it be so hard to say, "is projected to win" instead of "takes"?  Sorry, I know I'm being nitpicky but it just looks ridiculous that with 0% of precincts reporting they call states for one party or the other. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Elly on November 04, 2008, 08:08:01 PM
I want one of those moving maps.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 08:09:24 PM
I love the 0% reporting, and they know who wins. The polls just closed! Give it more than 5 minutes!

Anyways, Obama has 77, McCain 34!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 04, 2008, 08:11:21 PM
NBC called Pennsylvania for Obama, which I find a little surprising this early.

If you go to nytimes.com, they have a pop-up window where you can see what all the networks are calling so far. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 08:12:05 PM
Someone else (not sure which network, it's on the BBC website) is calling/projecting/flying by the seat of their pants and guessing Pennsylvania for Obama - making it 84 / 34.

eta: Actually, that just changed to 104 / 34 for Obama on the BBC - dunno which states they just called for it though.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: beanyb on November 04, 2008, 08:30:41 PM
summerteeth, I'm basically having the same experience here. I booked tomorrow off work so that I can stay up to watch the results. I'm generally a news/politics junkie anyway, but it is a bit ridiculous that I'm so intrigued by an election that I have absolutely zero say in it!

They called Pennsylvania ridiculously quickly on BBC. It was literally a minute after polls closed. I couldnt believe they were being so quick to do it!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 08:35:24 PM
I really don't get how they can call some states so quickly, with so few actual votes in yet. Though CNN do seem to be being a bit cautious, I guess especially after 04.

It's ridiculous, I'm really excited to watch it, but I'm starting to get a bit bored and tired now - I want something to happen! Wolf and Anderson have a cat fight, or something, I'm dyin' over here!

And I wish there'd be some sort of election here soon, I'm all hopped up on election juice and I wanna vote for something, damnit!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: i_heart_toby on November 04, 2008, 08:43:51 PM
It looks like CNN is being the most cautious.  The senate races are very interesting.  The Dems already has 46 as of now, which includes North Carolina and the loss for Elizabeth Dole.

Everybody make sure to tune to Comedy Central at 10 eastern 7 pacific for the Jon/Stephen double team show.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 08:46:45 PM
Everybody make sure to tune to Comedy Central at 10 eastern 7 pacific for the Jon/Stephen double team show.

Don't suppose there's anywhere I can watch this live online outside of the States? Hate that I have to wait till tomorrow for it :(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: beanyb on November 04, 2008, 08:47:01 PM
The sleepiness is starting to kick in here too. It is almost 2am so I guess it's understandable, but I'm definitely not going to bed anytime soon. I'm in for the long haul!

As excited as I am for these results, and as much as I do love elections, I'm definitely all electioned out for the moment. It's only a year and a half since our last general election and then there's the insane coverage of this election and the disaster that was the Lisbon Treaty referendum. After tonight, I need a break! :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 08:52:45 PM
We can all keep each other up, beanyb.  smiley twhs Hee.

You know, I can't even remember when our last election for anything was. I think I maybe wasn't registered for it, cos I had moved and the registration process changed and I didn't get my forms in on time or something like that, but I definitely haven't voted in the last 2.5 years, I think. I think there's a general election next year, but I'm not sure. I'd actually prefer it if it was a set time like it is in the US, then at least you know where you're at. Here, I have no clue. Although, like I said earlier, I don't pay a huge amount of attention to politics here cos it makes me want to hit things very, very hard. It's weird, I don't pay attention to local politics cos it makes me mad as all hell, and I don't pay an awful lot of attention to UK politics cos we don't get to vote for Labour or the Tories (I think they're trying to get people from the Conservatives at least to run for all seats here for the first time in the next election, but I'm not sure) so we don't have as much of a voice. It's all very frustrating.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 09:20:17 PM
CNN Just called Georgia for McCain. At least my county went for Obama. Takes away the pain a bit. But, I was hopeful there for a bit.

And on worse news.... Chambliss has 57% compared to 39% for Martin.

*sigh*
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: i_heart_toby on November 04, 2008, 09:24:10 PM
Sorry Em, I was really pulling for you.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 04, 2008, 09:25:48 PM
Fox is calling Ohio for Obama. That's a little crazy but we'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Jadeey on November 04, 2008, 09:29:17 PM
summerteeth - if you're still awake check out http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22887506#22887506 for live coverage...

I'm loving this too. Because of the time difference it's only 3.30 in the afternoon (Wednesday) here so I don't have to worry about sleep.  :)  Our election is on Saturday, but I'm WAY more excited about the American one right now.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 09:32:29 PM
Thanks, Jadeey, I should've been clearer - I meant for the Daily Show/Colbert Report special - I hate waiting for the funny ;) I'm currently flicking between BBC and CNN International for coverage.

The BBC have called Ohio too, they do seem really trigger happy with the calling - it's like they hear the merest hint of a rumour and bang go the electoral college votes. They have Obama at 195 and McCain at 76 so far.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 04, 2008, 09:34:18 PM
NBC called Pennsylvania for Obama, which I find a little surprising this early.

If you go to nytimes.com, they have a pop-up window where you can see what all the networks are calling so far. Pretty cool.

Thanks for the hint on nytimes.com, sharky - it also lets you break down the states by counties reporting, which is VERY interesting in battleground states.  I've been watching Virginia and it's interesting to see how the percentages are changing as some of the larger counties report...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 09:38:45 PM
CNN have also called Ohio now. That really is huge for Obama.

eta: BBC is also calling Louisiana and Arkansas for McCain and New Mexico for Obama.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Jadeey on November 04, 2008, 09:42:12 PM
Thanks, Jadeey, I should've been clearer - I meant for the Daily Show/Colbert Report special - I hate waiting for the funny ;) I'm currently flicking between BBC and CNN International for coverage.

The BBC have called Ohio too, they do seem really trigger happy with the calling - it's like they hear the merest hint of a rumour and bang go the electoral college votes. They have Obama at 195 and McCain at 76 so far.

Oh right.  :)

So with Obama taking Ohio it's pretty much assured that Obama's the new President right? Or so says my friend who works for a pollster company over there. I don't really understand why. But if he's right then I'm happy.  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 09:43:56 PM
It's looking more and more likely Obama will win, and that's what the polls have been saying also. Of course, I'm not going to sleep until I know for sure (and then be too excited to sleep). Not exactly the best thing since I said I would work early tomorrow.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 09:45:02 PM
So with Obama taking Ohio it's pretty much assured that Obama's the new President right? Or so says my friend who works for a pollster company over there. I don't really understand why. But if he's right then I'm happy.  ;D

No Republican has ever won without Ohio, so yeah, I'd say it's looking pretty good. But I'm not calling anything for anyone yet, I don't wanna tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing, cos then I'd have to go outside, turn around three times, curse and spit.

eta: Ditto that, Em. I'm staying as late as I can - though it's coming up on 3am, so I really hope the rest of the results come in fast!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EverybodyHurts on November 04, 2008, 09:53:13 PM
They basically showed on CNN a hypothetical situation in which McCain won every single state left with the exception of HI, WA, OR and CA and he still didn't have 270 electoral votes.  So without OH, it's pretty much a done deal.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 04, 2008, 09:59:44 PM
Election night 2004 I went to bed and Kerry was projected to be the winner, so I'm not going to get excited until this thing is called for real.

MSNBC just called TX for McCain. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 10:02:54 PM
BBC just called Mississippi for McCain.

eta: CNN called UT and KS for McCain, IA for Obama.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Emador on November 04, 2008, 10:04:30 PM
It's looking more and more likely Obama will win, and that's what the polls have been saying also. Of course, I'm not going to sleep until I know for sure (and then be too excited to sleep). Not exactly the best thing since I said I would work early tomorrow.

I'm doing the same thing. I'm going to be exhausted tomorrow but its too exciting not to watch.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cricket03 on November 04, 2008, 10:06:40 PM
According to the BBC:

McCain got Utah.
Obama got Iowa.

ETA: Or what summerteeth said.  :)

According to them, it's now 207 to 135.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 10:08:24 PM
Can anyone tell me what the 1 vote difference is between the BBC's count and CNN's? CNN have 206, the Beeb 207. I'm confused, since no state has less than 3 electoral votes, right? Nevermind, they've now adjusted it to 207 on both. CNN still only has McCain on 89 though.

I foresee a lot of West Wing watching tomorrow for me, once I wake up!  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 04, 2008, 10:10:05 PM
I think it's Maine, which can split its electoral votes.  CNN is giving one of those to McCain but other outlets aren't.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 10:11:11 PM
Huh, I had no idea Maine could do that. That's interesting - I take it that's the only state that doesn't give all its electoral votes to the majority winner of the state then?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 10:16:31 PM
Huh, I had no idea Maine could do that. That's interesting - I take it that's the only state that doesn't give all its electoral votes to the majority winner of the state then?
One other state does it.
Can't remember which one yet....

Nebraska does also.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 10:18:59 PM
Very quick google search suggests Nebraska?

Heh, nevermind ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 04, 2008, 10:45:14 PM
Does anybody else find it symbolically interesting that Obama's party is a huge outdoor gathering of mostly common citizens and McCain's is a small private party in a posh hotel?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 10:49:29 PM
You know, I was thinking the same thing - even the parties speak volumes about the campaigns and the ideals and values that the candidates do/don't represent. Particularly when they showed Hank Williams playing at the McCain party, versus the huge crowds of mostly young people gathering at Grant Park.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 04, 2008, 10:49:38 PM
Interesting observation.

I was thinking how different things are from 40 years ago. In Grant Park during the summer of 1968 demonstrators were getting tear-gassed and getting their heads bashed in by the Chicago police during the Democratic Convention.  O0  Peace. Love. Happiness.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 04, 2008, 10:53:33 PM
Does anybody else find it symbolically interesting that Obama's party is a huge outdoor gathering of mostly common citizens and McCain's is a small private party in a posh hotel?

Yeah.  Definitely.   Obama's bash looks like America, and McCain's shindig looks like the GOP.   

I'm not feeling terribly worked up for the hi-rollers in McCain's camp, but I do know what it's like to work hard on an campaign and lose, lose, lose - and so I do feel a certain kinship with the McCain rank and file -- the unpaid volunteers, that is.   All 25 of them.    :-\

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 10:54:19 PM
It truly is astounding.

I mean, sometimes I get kinda nutty that it's taken this long for an African American to be in this position, and the discussion of race does sort of get my goat a little because it's just incomprehensible to me that people could rationalise racism the way that they seem to, but when you put it into that kind of perspective, it really is an amazing thing how much has changed in that time.

Also - Will.I.Am just appeared as a hologram to Anderson Cooper. God bless America!!

eta: That's very true, susanita, about the volunteers, that is. I'd imagine a lot of people joined McCain's campaign early on because of his reputation of integrity, moderation and sincerity - I wonder if many of them are left. I feel really sorry for them - I feel disappointed in McCain after the campaign he's run, and I was never really a supporter in the first place.

eta more: Virginia just called for Obama. Now that it's looking pretty likely (still trying not to count chickens and what not) that Obama's gonna win, I'm very interested to see what sort of mandate he's going to get to run the country. Winning the likes of Virginia is huge.

Aaaand CNN just predicted the presidency for Obama!!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 11:03:56 PM
Virginia went to Obama. He has 220 votes. Plus California's 55. Which means 275. Which means the presidency.

ETA:!
CNN calls 297 and OBAMA!

Oh my god!
Oh my god
oh my god!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 04, 2008, 11:04:41 PM

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/neverbeendone/smilies/0cb43965.gif)  NBC has called it ALL for Obama!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 04, 2008, 11:04:59 PM
NBC News is calling it for Obama.

(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z143/pamcasso_photos/politics/small_44.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:07:01 PM
My god, I am actually choked up here and I'm not even American!!!

Congratulations to everyone who voted, no matter which way you voted, you have all done an amazing thing with this election.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 04, 2008, 11:07:55 PM
Yeeeesssss!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 11:08:00 PM
I can't believe this... I'm excited, I'm jumping, I'm crying with happiness. This is too amazing.

Its been an amazing night, an amazing two years, and I'm so proud to have been a part of it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 04, 2008, 11:08:12 PM
I'm a bit choked up as well.  I live in a blue county deep within a red state and I am very, very proud of my country today.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: beanyb on November 04, 2008, 11:09:27 PM
I've spent most of this election campaign being quite cynical about Obama. Dont get me wrong, I absolutely would have voted for him over McCain (and probably campaigned for him), but I've never viewed him as the saviour that some many people seem to see him as.

But.... wow. I've actually gotten quite emotional in the last couple of minutes. It's an amazing feat. I'm so glad I stayed up (til 4am and counting) to watch this. I'm really excited for his speech.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EverybodyHurts on November 04, 2008, 11:10:48 PM
I just chatted with my son on the phone.  Wonder what Frederick Douglass and Martin Luther King, Jr. would say at this moment?  Pretty great day.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: xoxoxo on November 04, 2008, 11:11:07 PM
I can report that NYC is going BERSERK.  People have been chanting and yelling for the last 15 minutes on my block.  And now the crowd just recited the Pledge of Allegiance.

That's pretty cool.

eta - beanyb - I was cynical myself and share your same sentiments.  But I gotta say - anyone who can evoke such passion in a city of (mostly) cynics is pretty amazing.

I was just in China for the last week and one of the servers at an event I attended was so fascinated by Americans. He asked each one of us where we lived (he was giddy as he reported "I just met someone from Wisconsin!) and even asked us who we were voting for.  As we left the boat he stopped each of us and said "God Bless America."

At the risk of sounding cheesy - it's moments like this that I realize how lucky I am to live here.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:11:25 PM
Same here, beanyb. I don't think he's perfect by any means, but it represents such a huge change for the US, in so so many ways that it really is astounding to watch.

I can't wait for the speech either!

btw, wendolf when you get back here, I want a full report on Grant Park!!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 04, 2008, 11:16:31 PM
I think it's wonderful that on this board and others there are so many sentiments of American pride.  It's just lovely.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 04, 2008, 11:20:25 PM
I've spent most of this election campaign being quite cynical about Obama. Dont get me wrong, I absolutely would have voted for him over McCain (and probably campaigned for him), but I've never viewed him as the saviour that some many people seem to see him as.

But.... wow. I've actually gotten quite emotional in the last couple of minutes. It's an amazing feat. I'm so glad I stayed up (til 4am and counting) to watch this. I'm really excited for his speech.

Agreed.  Not a saviour.  Obama is not going to save this country, that is up to the citizens, but we need leadership.  We have that now with President-Elect Barack Obama.     We have our work cut out for us, and believe me, electing a new president is just the beginning.   

NBC is calling Florida for Obama. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:21:38 PM
I realise that I'm beyond blathering at this point, but I cannot fully express how profound a moment this is, to me at least. It will and already has done so much to change the way America is and will be viewed around the world, and on a more personal level, it gives me some small fraction of hope that if America can do this, then the stupid, petty, and heartbreaking sectarianism and stubbornness that has divided my part of the world for so long might be overcome at some point too. I realise that sounds a little sentimental, and NI has come very very far in the past 10-15 years, but there's still so much small mindedness to be overcome that seeing something like this really is inspirational.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cricket03 on November 04, 2008, 11:22:36 PM
ABC just called Colorado for Obama.

They just had a really great shot of Jesse Jackson crying upon hearing of Obama's win, and all the celebrating happening in Kenya. What a great night for American politics!  ;D

ETA: McCain's making his concession speech now.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: aneehan95 on November 04, 2008, 11:23:42 PM
This is amazing.

Just to think, about 40 years ago, African-Americans were fighting for their rights as Americans. Now we have a BLACK President.

I am so emotional right now.

On a more silly note, I wonder how many Punaho alums and students are going to be more cocky now that a President graduated from there  ;)

This is a great day in America's history.

I realise that I'm beyond blathering at this point, but I cannot fully express how profound a moment this is, to me at least. It will and already has done so much to change the way America is and will be viewed around the world, and on a more personal level, it gives me some small fraction of hope that if America can do this, then the stupid, petty, and heartbreaking sectarianism and stubbornness that has divided my part of the world for so long might be overcome at some point too. I realise that sounds a little sentimental, and NI has come very very far in the past 10-15 years, but there's still so much small mindedness to be overcome that seeing something like this really is inspirational.

That is a great post, summerteeth.  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 04, 2008, 11:25:15 PM
McCain is conceding, and the crowd is booing.   

Good speech, though.   There are some fences in this country that need some serious mending.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:26:57 PM
That is disappointing that people are booing.

Wherever he's giving his speech isn't the same place they kept showing during the rest of the coverage tonight, that was indoors.

And thanks aneehan95   :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Emador on November 04, 2008, 11:27:28 PM
I'm not even American but I'm ecstatic. Its rather strange.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 11:27:51 PM
I'm still in awe. This is an amazing night. I can't believe it. I can't say any more than what has been said before.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Elly on November 04, 2008, 11:28:48 PM
I'm so excited for America.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:29:03 PM
I'm still in awe. This is an amazing night. I can't believe it. I can't say any more than what has been said before.


Me neither, Em but I still keep typing!! Mostly cos I'm the only person up and it's 4.30am, almost!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cricket03 on November 04, 2008, 11:30:15 PM
Quote
Wherever he's giving his speech isn't the same place they kept showing during the rest of the coverage tonight, that was indoors.


I believe it's outside of the indoor location that was being shown over the course of the evening. The location, I believe, is the Arizona Biltmore.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 04, 2008, 11:30:51 PM
I'm still in awe. This is an amazing night. I can't believe it. I can't say any more than what has been said before.


Say it a hundred times!  

I was moved my Senator McCain's lovely mention of President Elect Obama's ( ;D) grandmother.  Mr. Blue and I both lost very dear grandparents this year, and there is no underestimating their value.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 04, 2008, 11:31:50 PM
This is one of those times that shows how amazing democracy is, and makes me proud to be an American.  I think John McCain is a really good man and an amazing patriot, and as Republicans go, he was probably the best option.  But it's great to see such a sea change in the general thinking around the country.  And it's so great to see people from other countries getting so excited about it!  Just the idea that some of you are staying up all night to watch the results... very humbling.   :)
 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: xoxoxo on November 04, 2008, 11:33:02 PM
Quote
Wherever he's giving his speech isn't the same place they kept showing during the rest of the coverage tonight, that was indoors.


I believe it's outside of the indoor location that was being shown over the course of the evening. The location, I believe, is the Arizona Biltmore.

You're absolutely correct - the Biltmore has palatial grounds (including a chessboard a la Alice in Wonderland) - they're just outside right now.

Very classy speech by McCain IMHO.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: beanyb on November 04, 2008, 11:33:47 PM
That was a very classy, gracious speech by John McCain. I'm going to try and ignore the not so classy and gracious reaction of the crowd of supporters. It'd just annoy me too much.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:34:51 PM
That was a very classy, gracious speech by John McCain. I'm going to try and ignore the not so classy and gracious reaction of the crowd of supporters. It'd just annoy me too much.

What she said.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 11:35:23 PM
Just a note about Georgia - 86% reporting, 55% with Chambliss, and 41% with Martin. Yet CNN hasn't called it yet. The fact they haven't called it yet gives me a bit of hope...but its looking likely for another 6 years of Chambliss.
(which is the only reason I can't be 100% happy. This little reminder that all is not right.)

However, the speech did remind me why McCain is a good guy. I may have a lot of personal issues with him and his politics, but he is a good guy.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 04, 2008, 11:35:42 PM
After watching his concession speech, I have to say, McCain is a class act and a graceful loser.  I'm so glad that this election was a decisive victory, and didn't have the close calls of the last 2.  Hopefully now the country will be able to heal and move forward.  1-20-09 is another day closer!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cricket03 on November 04, 2008, 11:37:25 PM
I agree. It was a very graceful concession speech. It's too bad his supporters that were present couldn't have followed his example.

Much better than the concession speech made by the gubernatorial candidate who lost in VT who continued to make nasty swipes at our incumbent governor even then.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 11:40:22 PM
Obama will speak in 25 minutes.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:42:02 PM
25 minutes?! For the love of God, doesn't he know the world is watching and it's the middle of the night in the rest of the world?!?!!!!

Kidding, kidding, I'm totally kidding!!  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 04, 2008, 11:42:11 PM
One more note here.  I am so proud of North Carolina tonight.  For a state that is historically strongly Republican they are going down to the wire.  It looks like it will go red, but only by about .02%.  It blows my mind that the state was able to get behind an African-American candidate like this.  Yay for progress!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:43:45 PM
Is there any word yet on what turnout might end up being?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 04, 2008, 11:46:25 PM
This is my MF President.

via Marc Ambinder (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/obama_asks_mccain_to_sit_down.php)

Quote
Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs, via CBS News's Maria Gavrilovic

    Senator Obama thanked Senator McCain for his graciousness and said he had waged a tough race. Senator Obama told Senator McCain he was consistently someone who has showed class and honor during this campaign as he has during his entire life in public service.

    Senator Obama said he was eager to sit down and talk about how the two of them can work together - Obama said to move this country forward "I need your help, you're a leader on so many important issues"

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: There There on November 04, 2008, 11:47:34 PM
 ;D  I'm very pleased by this.  Our country needs a lot of healing right now and I think this is a good indication that we're ready to do a bit of unifying.  My college campus is going crazy.  People are rolling the quad (TPing the trees).  It's like a huge party or something.  And I live in NC, which is still too close to call.   

Just to get it all out there: I'm a registered Republican.  I was raised in a military household by Republican parents.  We are more what you'd call "fiscal Republicans" than "social Republicans" though.  I like and respect John McCain.  But I voted for Obama, because I feel that the country needs him more right now.

This is such an important moment for America.  I'm glad I'll remember it.   :)   
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 04, 2008, 11:53:07 PM
Oh wow - Obama is now leading in NC.  You guys have no idea how exciting this is for me! 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 04, 2008, 11:56:27 PM
I'll get excited along with you notatoy. I'll adopt NC so I feel more part of things  partyhaticon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 04, 2008, 11:57:26 PM
Can I move to NC? I'm liking it more than I'm liking Georgia at this moment.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 04, 2008, 11:59:33 PM
I hear ya.  I'm a Texan for goodness' sake.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Jadeey on November 05, 2008, 12:00:08 AM
Wow. My thoughts about moving to America are getting even stronger. We have an election on Saturday that is most likely going to end with a right-wing win.... Yes, America is very tempting right now.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: aneehan95 on November 05, 2008, 12:01:42 AM
Did you guys see the people outside of the White House?! It's amazing!

President Obama is on! ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 12:01:52 AM
I'll get excited along with you notatoy. I'll adopt NC so I feel more part of things  partyhaticon

Awww - thanks summerteeth!  I've loved your enthusiasm for the election overall - I've talked to quite a few of my overseas friends (non-American and American) and I feel that the world is watching this country with a positive view once again... I was living overseas for the last election and I went to bed thinking the result would go one way... when I woke up in the morning and realized that Bush had been re-elected, I can tell you I didn't feel that the rest of the world was looking at America with any sense of positivity...
Anyways, I'm just post-election blathering.  Thanks for staying up all night with us!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 05, 2008, 12:02:28 AM
The Guardian breaks it down.  [link] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/06/barackobama-uselections2008)

Quote
They did it. They really did it. So often crudely caricatured by others, the American people yesterday stood in the eye of history and made an emphatic choice for change for themselves and the world.

*snip*

Mr Obama will take office in January amid massive unrealisable expectations and facing a daunting list of problems - the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the broken healthcare system, the spiralling federal budget and America's profligate energy regime all prominent among them. Eclipsing them all, as Mr Obama has made clear in recent days, is the challenge of rebuilding the economy and the banking system. These, though, are issues for another day. Today is for celebration, for happiness and for reflected human glory. Savour those words: President Barack Obama, America's hope and, in no small way, ours too. (emphasis mine)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 12:03:24 AM
Hee, thanks for putting  up with all my blathering! I've always been a bit more interested in American culture, politics and history for a lot of reasons, most of which I can't even really figure out for sure, but this has been such an amazing election to follow.

eta: PUPPY!!!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 05, 2008, 12:14:39 AM
PUPPY!  Whee! 

Man, you'd think Obama would be so busy, but hey, he just sent me an e-mail.  ;)

Quote
I'm about to head to Grant Park to talk to everyone gathered there, but I wanted to write to you first.

We just made history.

And I don't want you to forget how we did it.

You made history every single day during this campaign -- every day you knocked on doors, made a donation, or talked to your family, friends, and neighbors about why you believe it's time for change.

I want to thank all of you who gave your time, talent, and passion to this campaign.

We have a lot of work to do to get our country back on track, and I'll be in touch soon about what comes next.

But I want to be very clear about one thing...

All of this happened because of you.

Thank you,

Barack


Awww.... you're welcome, Mr President-Elect.    :) :) :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 05, 2008, 12:17:10 AM
Go Susan, you made a difference. Trust me. You rock for all your support.

The puppy line made me love him even more.

He is the right choice for this country. I believe that with every fiber of my being.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sharipep on November 05, 2008, 12:20:09 AM
While I am still speechless and unabashedly proud of what my country just accomplished and the margin by which they accomplished it, I can't help but wonder - does anyone in Cali know what happened with Prop 8? Naturally President(-Elect) Obama's victory has eclipsed that issue so I can't seem to find those results online. Anyone? ;)

Wow.

Yes we did.

I just got both that email and a text from Barack, susanita. Made me tear up a bit. Definitely saving them!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 05, 2008, 12:21:22 AM
While I am still speechless and unabashedly proud of what my country just accomplished and the margin by which they accomplished it, I can't help but wonder - does anyone in Cali know what happened with Prop 8? Naturally President(-Elect) Obama's victory has eclipsed that issue so I can't seem to find those results online. Anyone? ;)

So far 55% yes. only 13% reporting.
CNN (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/ballot.measures/)

and with that, I'm off. I need to sleep so I can pretend to function tomorrow.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 12:22:56 AM
Hey you guys? When you're done with him in 8 years, can we have him? My god, what I would give for a leader like that.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EverybodyHurts on November 05, 2008, 12:25:55 AM
I love that he mentioned Scranton in his speech.
And hearing him quote Lincoln just gave me chills.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 12:32:48 AM
I didn't know whether to say this here or the love thread and as to not put anyone off I've decided this is a more apt location.

I love that one man can bring me to tears with his choice words. How I can feel an overpowering sense of pride in my country again that has been long forgotten. I can say that I am once again, proud to be an American and only one man could've done that for me. I'm overwhelmed to see this country continue to progress. We have come a long way and continue to move forward and evolve in the ways we should. I am humbled by his sense of togetherness and pride in us as people and am so happy to see this country come back together after everything we've been through. All the different races, genders, creeds, standing out in the Chicago night sky staring forward at the same man and feeling the same thing I am tonight puts me in awe.

Thank you President(-Elect) Obama for making me proud again.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: aneehan95 on November 05, 2008, 12:34:51 AM
I love how he referenced Sam Cooke. While I was watching I kept thinking "That's our President". That is our President. I got choked up watching his speech. A change is going to come.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 12:35:27 AM
I didn't know whether to say this here or the love thread and as to not put anyone off I've decided this is a more apt location.

I love that one man can bring me to tears with his choice words. How I can feel an overpowering sense of pride in my country again that has been long forgotten. I can say that I am once again, proud to be an American and only one man could've done that for me. I'm overwhelmed to see this country continue to progress. We have come a long way and continue to move forward and evolve in the ways we should. I am humbled by his sense of togetherness and pride in us as people and am so happy to see this country come back together after everything we've been through. All the different races, genders, creeds, standing out in the Chicago night sky staring forward at the same man and feeling the same thing I am tonight puts me in awe.

Thank you President(-Elect) Obama for making me proud again.

What a lovely post, dm.

notatoy, NC is getting seriously close! 98% in and there's like 14,000 votes in it!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 12:36:35 AM
Yeah, when I heard Scranton I immediately thought of Michael Scott.   ::)

One of the things I hated about the previous administration was having to hear Bush speak.  I feel that even if it's only to deliver bad news, I will look forward to hearing Obama speak for the next 4 years. That man could inspire a rock!  And I love that he spoke to those who didn't vote for him as well.  That was a very classy move.  :)

ETA:  summerteeth... 99% and Obama is up 0.5%!!!!!!!  Even more awesome?  Looking at the exit poll data - it seems that the 18-29 age group really turned the tide for the state.  Go young people!!!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cricket03 on November 05, 2008, 12:39:47 AM
I think what gets me most about Obama's victory, is that, for me, it finally feels like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. After a very dark period in our nation's history, to me, Obama feels like a beacon of hope. I feel so much more positive and optimistic about the future than I have in years.  Obama's victory has restored my sense of pride in my country, and for that, I'll be forever grateful. Tonight, for the most part, I've felt a more unifying feeling across the country. Like we're really coming together as a people, that without Obama's historic victory, I'm not certain would've been possible.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Elly on November 05, 2008, 12:42:03 AM
I didn't know whether to say this here or the love thread and as to not put anyone off I've decided this is a more apt location.

I love that one man can bring me to tears with his choice words. How I can feel an overpowering sense of pride in my country again that has been long forgotten. I can say that I am once again, proud to be an American and only one man could've done that for me. I'm overwhelmed to see this country continue to progress. We have come a long way and continue to move forward and evolve in the ways we should. I am humbled by his sense of togetherness and pride in us as people and am so happy to see this country come back together after everything we've been through. All the different races, genders, creeds, standing out in the Chicago night sky staring forward at the same man and feeling the same thing I am tonight puts me in awe.

Thank you President(-Elect) Obama for making me proud again.

I feel the same way, dm.

I gotta say though, I feel bad for McCain. He's campaigned multiple times to be president and finally came so close. I have to admire his perseverance.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 12:43:31 AM
Yeah, when I heard Scranton I immediately thought of Michael Scott.   ::)

One of the things I hated about the previous administration was having to hear Bush speak.  I feel that even if it's only to deliver bad news, I will look forward to hearing Obama speak for the next 4 years. That man could inspire a rock!  And I love that he spoke to those who didn't vote for him as well.  That was a very classy move.  :)

I've been a big fan of The West Wing for a long time, and despite the fact that I know it's wildly idealistic at times, I've always longed for a politician - any politician - to move me with words the way Bartlet did. And now we've got one (I say we but you know what I mean). And I truly believe he's ready for the hard work ahead - I loved the bit about how this victory isn't the change we need, it's the chance to make that change, or however he put it. So inspirational, but inspiring you to work, to make every American a part of the process. Surely the true essence of democracy.

You know, I've been so cynical, especially in the last 8 yrs, of everything we've heard about America being based on all these ideals and values beacuse of the way in which it has failed so spectacularly (thanks to the current administration) to live up to them, but I think tonight the world saw the American dream in action. And I really, really hope it continues.

eta notatoy that's awesome!! Hey, young people didn't screw it up - I guess Jon Stewart shouting at them Monday night worked!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Azlin on November 05, 2008, 12:45:44 AM
I can echo the West Wing sentiments. I've always wanted a president I could respect as a person and as an orator, so this is a really exciting night for me.

And also, go young voters! I have never been more proud of my demographic.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 05, 2008, 12:46:56 AM
dm and cricket made me all sniffly.   Stoopid allergies.  :)   

Just to have a president who can speak in complete sentences is a plus.  Heh.   I'm trying to find a link, but I saw footage on CNN of people in front of the White House celebrating.  It looked like they were trying to serve an eviction notice.  :D :D :D

I love this country.   Our national nightmare is close to being over.   Godspeed, President-Elect Obama. 

 grouphugicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 12:50:07 AM
Wow - I was so involved in the NC race I didn't even see that Colorado went blue this year too!  That's awesome!  Colorado also usually goes Republican but I know that Obama has inspired a lot of people there to get out and vote. 

Yay for change!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 12:50:52 AM
The similarities of this campaign with the last one in particular in TWW stun me - I mean I know that the Santos character was based on Obama, but so many of the details that wound up being spot on were eerie. I was watching an ep the other week where Gianelli was telling Vinick that as a moderate republican, most of the people agree with him on most of the issues, and he was the first candidate in a lifetime to be in a position to unite the country, to not have to go negative, to not have to appeal to the super-right-wing, and that a right-wing highly religious and conservative running mate would ruin him.

I wanted to slap McCain around the head with the dvd.

I mean, I always supported Obama, but there was so much hope that an Obama/McCain race would raise the level of politics and discourse, but McCain seemingly gave into the GOP when it came to a lot of his campaign strategies.

I could go on and on and ON about TWW especially with regard to this election, so I'll shut up now :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 12:52:58 AM
Apologies for the double post but this

dm and cricket made me all sniffly.   Stoopid allergies.  :)  

Just to have a president who can speak in complete sentences is a plus.  Heh.   I'm trying to find a link, but I saw footage on CNN of people in front of the White House celebrating.  It looked like they were trying to serve an eviction notice.  :D :D :D

I love this country.   Our national nightmare is close to being over.   Godspeed, President-Elect Obama. 

 grouphugicon

is filled with awesome.  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: StarShine on November 05, 2008, 12:54:19 AM
I consider myself a liberal conservative, and can I just say, I've never been more proud to be an American.  ;D ;D ;D (that's the closest thing to a proud smiley I could find!)

And I agree, I appreciated McCains' speech. McCain is a gracious loser, and handled the conclusion of this election well. His supporters, that's another story.

Focusing on the positive: I just high-fived my cat, I'm that happy!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 05, 2008, 12:54:32 AM
If anyone is interested in reading Obama's speech (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/05/AR2008110500013.html), the Washington Post has it online.

I won't be able to sleep because my head's all stuffed-up from crying. I'm such a crybaby.  :'(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 05, 2008, 12:58:13 AM
I think it's all kind of beyond words.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Azlin on November 05, 2008, 12:58:54 AM
summerteeth, the whole day I kept having West Wing quotes come into my mind. Especially when it started raining here.  ;)

Anyway, I'm just so pleased with the number of people who actually voted. I know the economy is a huge issue and explains a lot of that, but after hearing my whole life about the sad state of voter apathy in our country, these kind of numbers are truly inspiring. People are voting, and they're voting smart. They're not sticking strictly to one party; they're researching issues; they're getting their information from multiple sources; and most of all they are showing that they care about what happens in the future of our country, and that, like I said, is very inspirational.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 01:00:02 AM
I think what gets me most about Obama's victory, is that, for me, it finally feels like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. After a very dark period in our nation's history, to me, Obama feels like a beacon of hope. I feel so much more positive and optimistic about the future than I have in years.  Obama's victory has restored my sense of pride in my country, and for that, I'll be forever grateful. Tonight, for the most part, I've felt a more unifying feeling across the country. Like we're really coming together as a people, that without Obama's historic victory, I'm not certain would've been possible.

I wanted to echo this sentiment of togetherness. Maybe because this year I'm on the winning side it feels different than '04 and '00, but it does feel like Obama did his best to pull us together and make it about the country not his demographic.

And halfbaked I've been crying for the last couple hours so you're not alone!  :D

Susanita I was thinking of you tonight. bighugsicon

summerteeth I felt the same that not only is this election huge for our country, our people, but really to adjust our appearance to the world. We can change, we do fix our mistakes, forgive us, we're not perfect and we'll admit it.

ETA: I am sad however that it looks like my state is passing a proposition that defines marriage, but you can't win them all can you? :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 01:06:52 AM
summerteeth, the whole day I kept having West Wing quotes come into my mind. Especially when it started raining here.  ;)

Anyway, I'm just so pleased with the number of people who actually voted. I know the economy is a huge issue and explains a lot of that, but after hearing my whole life about the sad state of voter apathy in our country, these kind of numbers are truly inspiring. People are voting, and they're voting smart. They're not sticking strictly to one party; they're researching issues; they're getting their information from multiple sources; and most of all they are showing that they care about what happens in the future of our country, and that, like I said, is very inspirational.

Azlin, I think that's one of the reasons that I'm so struck and emotional about it all. Because those sort of things pretty much never factor into politics where I'm from. I'd guess that about 90% of voters vote along the lines of community background, which I totally understand, but we need to rise above that if we're ever going to escape the small-mindedness that has dogged us for so long. Even after finally getting the Assembly up and running again, and seeing parties which *hated* each other for years working together, they're currently in stalemate over issues which, to me, are somewhat stubborn and petty. I hope, but am pessimistic, that we will one day get over that and make our voices heard on important issues like our healthcare and education and economy and public transport and the environment.

summerteeth I felt the same that not only is this election huge for our country, our people, but really to adjust our appearance to the world. We can change, we do fix our mistakes, forgive us, we're not perfect and we'll admit it.

dm, I think the election campaign itself started that change in public perception around the world. And I have to say, although I've not really posted in this thread till now, I've been reading it avidly for the past while, and it's been fantastic to see so many intelligent, well-informed, passionate people getting so involved and being so determined to have their voices heard.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 05, 2008, 01:12:42 AM
It was indeed a very moving moment to watch, even for us non-Americans.  I must say, seeing Jesse Jackson with tears rolling down his cheeks was very moving. 

Sen. McCain is a class act, and that was a very graceful concession speech (I can't imagine how difficult it must be to stay poised in a moment like that.) 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Elly on November 05, 2008, 01:13:36 AM
I'm starting to crash from the caffeine and adrenaline.

I'm so excited! I'm so excited! I'm so......scared tired. [/ Jesse Spano.]

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on November 05, 2008, 01:20:21 AM
I just wanted to echo what everyone else is saying and add that my campus is freaking RIOTING (in a good, excited way)!!!! This is so awesome.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 05, 2008, 01:30:29 AM
Just in case you've stopped crying by now, Jezebel has posted some moving photographs (http://jezebel.com/5076720/obama-wins) that will start the waterworks again.  :'(

(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2008/11/chicago1-110408.jpg)


Dr. King's sister, Christine King Farris
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2008/11/christine_king_farris.jpg)


Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sharipep on November 05, 2008, 01:31:42 AM
Thanks for the link, EH!! ;)

I can't say it any better than everyone else did. This election was just made of WIN. I'm so excited that the rest of the world will understand that WE GET IT. We know. We're trying to change. We're proud and stubborn and very narcissistic but in the end we want to be loved again and Barack will help us do that. I'm nervous for him and the tremendous mountain he has to climb, but I am also so excited and hopeful and just ... wow. wow wowowow.

I haven't cried yet. I think I'm still in shock.

As for McCain, my heart broke for him a little, you could see the pain and tears in his eyes. But I am not sad that he lost. I think its kind of karmic retribution. He should not have sacrificed himself and his beliefs or values to pander to a base that would have voted for him anyway (or at the very least NOT voted for Obama). I think many Republicans needed to learn this lesson - White middle-aged Male Joe Six Pack/the Plumber is not the average definitive American anymore. It's time to step up and accept that the world and the country is evolving and we need to embrace it, not try to hold it back.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 01:34:12 AM
White middle-aged Male Joe Six Pack/the Plumber is not the average definitive American anymore. It's time to step up and accept that the world and the country is evolving and we need to embrace it, not try to hold it back.

From your post to the world's ears... well said. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 01:34:52 AM
When are they gonna call the rest of the swing states? NC has been at 99% precincts in and the same vote about 0.4% difference for ages now. It's infuriating! Also, Al Franken is neck and neck for the Minnesota Senator seat. There's less than 10,000 in it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: nomadshan on November 05, 2008, 01:36:37 AM
Thank for voting, everyone!   bighugsicon

Happy, happy, happy.  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sharipep on November 05, 2008, 01:38:10 AM
Totally jinxed myself when I said I hadn't cried yet.

Those pictures definitely started the waterworks. I'll never sleep now. OH WELL. LOL. As a young African-American woman, I'm just in such shock and awe that this day has finally come. Hope definitely springs eternal. Thanks halfbaked!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 01:38:57 AM
When are they gonna call the rest of the swing states? NC has been at 99% precincts in and the same vote about 0.4% difference for ages now. It's infuriating! Also, Al Franken is neck and neck for the Minnesota Senator seat. There's less than 10,000 in it.

NC is currently split by about 13k votes... I did some quick math and they need to look at another 28k votes to decide.  The numbers seem to be trickling in - I've been refreshing for the past 30 minutes and they added less than 100 votes to the totals...Can you say nail-biter?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 01:39:41 AM
When are they gonna call the rest of the swing states? NC has been at 99% precincts in and the same vote about 0.4% difference for ages now. It's infuriating! Also, Al Franken is neck and neck for the Minnesota Senator seat. There's less than 10,000 in it.

NC is currently split by about 13k votes... I did some quick math and they need to look at another 28k votes to decide.  The numbers seem to be trickling in - I've been refreshing for the past 30 minutes and they added less than 100 votes to the totals...Can you say nail-biter?


I know!! I'm taking this adoption thing very seriously!!!

Yikes, they're saying on CNN now that Sarah Palin may take Ted Stevens' seat in the Senate. I guess we might need to keep some sort of comedy value around so Stewart and Colbert have something to do.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 01:48:54 AM
Uh oh, the difference is now .2%.... McCain is gaining in NC.  Oh well, even if he does win the state, I can't help but be proud of the 4+million voters who went out to the polls today.  North Carolina too close to call with 99% of the vote in?  That has to be historical!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 01:50:10 AM
According to cnn.com, 100% of the vote is in and there's about 12k in it. Don't know why they're not calling it if it's 100% though?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 05, 2008, 01:50:28 AM
I think someone may have been asking about Proposition 8 in California earlier in the thread (I may have imagined it seeing I am very tired.)  Here are the results so far. (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=0)  :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 05, 2008, 01:54:50 AM
I was just suddenly reminded of one reason I was really hoping Obama would win -- the Supreme Court!  Hallelujah!  When our older/more infirmed Justices start retiring, I don't have to worry about them being replaced with young vibrant ultra-conservatives. :)

I think someone may have been asking about Proposition 8 in California earlier in the thread (I may have imagined it seeing I am very tired.)  Here are the results so far. (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=0)  :-\

Because by all means, if a court says that you're treating a group unfairly according to your constitution, you should change the constitution instead of saying, "whoops, sorry about all that unfairness."  Classy. ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 01:57:00 AM
According to cnn.com, 100% of the vote is in and there's about 12k in it. Don't know why they're not calling it if it's 100% though?

I'm not sure... according to the county by county map they are all at 100%... wow, if Obama wins NC my dad will be ecstatic!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 01:58:37 AM
I wish they'd hurry up and declare something for it - it's almost 7am and I need my bed before my housemates get up and think I'm crazy!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 05, 2008, 02:03:59 AM

According to cnn.com, 100% of the vote is in and there's about 12k in it. Don't know why they're not calling it if it's 100% though?


It's possible that the vote difference is so close in a particular state that an automatic recount rule/law that goes into effect. I know that happens in some local/state elections around the country, but I'm not certain if any state uses a mandatory recount for a Presidential election.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 02:04:12 AM
They are saying that Obama DID win in NC, but there is still a small number of provisional ballots to be counted.  The electoral official seems to believe that these ballots will fall along the same lines, but there are only 11K votes separating the candidates.  Still though... Obama won NC?  Awesome!

Story Here (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/112/story/299182.html)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 02:06:54 AM
Alrighty then, in that case I'm heading off to bed now. Doubt I'll really be able to sleep much though!!

Thanks for putting up with all my wittering - it was a pleasure to share this moment with you all  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 02:15:06 AM
Ugh - it's late.  G'night summerteeth - it's been a pleasure!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 05, 2008, 02:19:27 AM
btw, wendolf when you get back here, I want a full report on Grant Park!!!

Okay, I haven't caught up on the NINE pages of posts since I left, but I did see summerteeth's post so I'm here to report back. The rally (is rally the right word?) in Grant Park was amazing! Thousands and thousands of people peacefully celebrating an historic night. The ethnic diversity was so wonderful, although the crowd was mostly young -- probably the majority of the people we saw were under 30. But then again, we weren't able to get tickets to the "elite" (and by elite, I mean 70,000 people) area to actually see Obama -- that's probably where more of the "older" people were. Anyway, you kind of felt like you just wanted to hug everyone. There was a little typical booing and such whenever McCain's name was mentioned (I hate booing), but other than that the crowd was really respectful and happy and just excited. I saw several people in tears.

It was safe and well organized and my friend and I were amazed that we got down there and home with absolutely no traffic! I have no idea how that is possible other than maybe we were the only ones who drove! They actually closed of blocks and blocks of Michigan Avenue and it was just filled with people. Oceans and oceans of people. I'm anxious to hear how many people they thought showed up because I really have no idea. I've been downtown for the Marathon and this blew that away. Anyway, the whole experience made the night so special. I bought a "I was there!" button and a Obama/Biden hat for my daughter. So cool. I think I'm still a little in shock. But good shock.  ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 05, 2008, 04:26:18 AM
What an amazing night.  This is seriously one of the greatest days I've ever seen in this country. I broke out into tears when they made the announcement and wept openly throughout his speech. History was made tonight and I couldn't be happier. I really feel that the country will now move back in the right direction.

A couple of historic things I thought were interesting. I think it's only fitting that the first African-American President comes from the same state as Lincoln. I think it's also fitting that it looks like he will do it by winning at least three states from the Confederacy.

ETA: Looks like GA might not be decided yet. fivethirtyeight.com says the early vote has not been counted.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 05, 2008, 07:33:01 AM
ETA: Looks like GA might not be decided yet. fivethirtyeight.com says the early vote has not been counted.
First thing I checked this morning. Chambliss/Martin 50/46%, with 4% going to other. 99% reporting.
Quote
Meanwhile, in Georgia, incumbent Republican Sen. Saxby Chambliss was hanging on to a slim majority against challenger Democrat Jim Martin. If neither candidate gets more than 50 percent of the vote, the top vote-getter Tuesday will face a December runoff against the second-place finisher.
So we may be headed for a runoff? AJC (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/11/04/georgia_us_senate_election.html) talks more about it. Right now, Chambliss is at 50.3%.

I still can't believe this feeling. I went to bed, and I was just, so excited the entire time. I kept thinking of that moment when Obama won, that first instant I knew, and that would get me squeeing again. We witnessed history last night. History of the best kind possible.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 07:48:14 AM
Thanks for the report, wendolf! It must have been so amazing to be there last night.

The BBC and MSNBC has called Indiana for Obama.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 05, 2008, 08:16:45 AM
Obama wins Maverick County, which lies along the Texas/Mexico border, by a landslide.

Source (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/individual/#mapPTX)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on November 05, 2008, 10:00:42 AM
I think many Republicans needed to learn this lesson - White middle-aged Male Joe Six Pack/the Plumber is not the average definitive American anymore. It's time to step up and accept that the world and the country is evolving and we need to embrace it, not try to hold it back.

I just wanted to quote this again on a new page b/c I think it's very important and well said!

I was happy when I lived in WA b/c I had never lived in a blue state. When we decided to move to NC, I was a bit bummed that I was going back to a red state. I know I'm being greedy, but I SO want Obama to win NC!

NC has been an interesting race. It's been red for so long, but b/c of the economy, there have been a lot of people moving here the past few years. I think it's amazing that there have been so many liberal people moving here - enough to change the landscape of the state!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 05, 2008, 10:03:53 AM
Would anybody want a copy of Obama's speech last night to keep on their computer?  If there's any interest I could make it available for download.  It would be about 160 mb.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Elly on November 05, 2008, 10:09:03 AM
I would, zerohhero.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: There There on November 05, 2008, 10:19:05 AM
I wake up, immediately check all the news and find that my state is the ONLY one that still hasn't been declared.  Oh, NC.  I probably can't be a good judge of things because I'm on a college campus which tend to lean left, but everyone I know voted for Obama.  But my parents live in a town that is mostly made up of retirees and such and I know quite a few people there who voted for Obama too.  I really think he's going to take the state. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 10:38:26 AM
Would anybody want a copy of Obama's speech last night to keep on their computer?  If there's any interest I could make it available for download.  It would be about 160 mb.

Oh wow I would! and I know a few people here in my office that would too.

You all have me in tears again this morning. I was talking to a co-worker for the last 30 minutes about all of it and she was in tears last night with her two kids in front of her and her husband by her side huddled around the TV.

She was telling me about some of the circumstances that she's been dealing with here in the office because she's been very vocal on voting for Obama. She's had people stop speaking to her for days, had people calling her names and being disrespectful to him and his family in front of her. She said "These people, who I used to respect, just changed in a blink of an eye in front of me."

I hope that we really can come back together and be once again the United States of America, this division is really hard on my heart.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 05, 2008, 10:44:40 AM
On this CNN website (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/), it says that 100% of the precincts have reported for Missouri and North Carolina, yet they haven't changed it to blue and given Obama the electoral votes.  Is this because 100% isn't really 100% or because it's so close there'd be an automatic recount or something?  Indiana still says 99% of the precincts.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 10:46:21 AM
I think notatoy or someone else said something about provisional ballots?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 05, 2008, 10:52:33 AM
This morning, I walked to work w/ a little step in my stride. Last night I was screaming for joy in my conservative OC neighborhood. Mr. Alamos and were so overcome w/ joy and happiness.  Obama's speech was filled w/ such passion and hope.   For my husband and I Obama represents our daughter because like Obama she is of mixed race. And now the saying to her "Anything is possible" -- is a true statement. 


It was hard for me not to call my relatives and friends who were for McCain... I really really wanted to rub it in. But I figure I would let them be pissed for awhile.

But oh happy days!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 05, 2008, 10:53:02 AM
Ah.  Thanks, summerteeth (and notatoy)!  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 05, 2008, 10:55:47 AM
Obama's speech (http://www.sendspace.com/file/yf8rz0)

If you only get sound, download and install this (http://www.sendspace.com/file/itzc8s).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: McGigi on November 05, 2008, 11:06:11 AM
Oh, lordy. I just read the past twelve pages of posts that I missed yesterday and today and am in tears again. What a fantastic day. I waited in line for five minutes, voted, and then cohosted an election party with lots of Barackoli and Baracklava and Sloppy Joe Bidens.

I tried not to let myself get my hopes up too much because of being so badly burned the last two times, so when they called it for him, it was a little unreal. I know the man isn't God, but he offers true hope and will work to get things back on track here. Right now is the first time in eight years I've been proud of this country- I remember being in England just after the 2004 election and having people ask me, "How could your country keep that man in office?"

I liked McCain's speech, classy is the exact right word for it. I felt like the past few days that he just appeared tired of it all and that he didn't really seem to want it. Obama's speech was exactly perfect and gave me goosebumps and many, many tears. I don't think all of our problems can be fixed overnight, but I think we're headed down a great path.

So, Giggles is still a little teary, but she's going to take a walk to the corner store and buy a newspaper to save to show her children what a groundbreaking day this was.

On a lighter note (because I really do need to stop crying)- Michigan passed its medical marijuana AND stem cell research proposals, and someone said "Hell yeah! Pretty soon we'll all be smoking weed and passing it to our clones!" Made me laugh.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 05, 2008, 11:11:22 AM
On a lighter note (because I really do need to stop crying)- Michigan passed its medical marijuana AND stem cell research proposals, and someone said "Hell yeah! Pretty soon we'll all be smoking weed and passing it to our clones!" Made me laugh.

I know that when I voted "yes" on both Props 1 and 2, I did so hoping that one day I'd be able to light up with my own clone. You betcha!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on November 05, 2008, 11:28:59 AM
Hackers and Spending Sprees (http://www.newsweek.com/id/167581)

Quote
One aide estimated that she spent "tens of thousands" more than the reported $150,000, and that $20,000 to $40,000 went to buy clothes for her husband. Some articles of clothing have apparently been lost. An angry aide characterized the shopping spree as "Wasilla hillbillies looting Neiman Marcus from coast to coast," and said the truth will eventually come out when the Republican Party audits its books.

Wasilla hillbillies - HA!  :D

Quote
The debates unnerved both candidates. When he was preparing for them during the Democratic primaries, Obama was recorded saying, "I don't consider this to be a good format for me, which makes me more cautious. I often find myself trapped by the questions and thinking to myself, 'You know, this is a stupid question, but let me … answer it.' So when Brian Williams is asking me about what's a personal thing that you've done [that's green], and I say, you know, 'Well, I planted a bunch of trees.' And he says, 'I'm talking about personal.' What I'm thinking in my head is, 'Well, the truth is, Brian, we can't solve global warming because I f---ing changed light bulbs in my house. It's because of something collective'."
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 05, 2008, 11:49:19 AM


Quote
The debates unnerved both candidates. When he was preparing for them during the Democratic primaries, Obama was recorded saying, "I don't consider this to be a good format for me, which makes me more cautious. I often find myself trapped by the questions and thinking to myself, 'You know, this is a stupid question, but let me … answer it.' So when Brian Williams is asking me about what's a personal thing that you've done [that's green], and I say, you know, 'Well, I planted a bunch of trees.' And he says, 'I'm talking about personal.' What I'm thinking in my head is, 'Well, the truth is, Brian, we can't solve global warming because I f---ing changed light bulbs in my house. It's because of something collective'."


That's so true; I was just reading that and laughing and thinking of posting it.

I also thought it was significant that they said McCain was 'relieved' at the choice of Biden for VP because Hillary would've been a lot more terrifying.  I can also understand why Obama didn't want anything to do with the Clintons (although personally I think Hillary would've said no anyway; I can definitely see her making another run for the top job). 

While I don't think Obama is the Messiah or anything, and is certainly not going to make our country do a complete 180 in a matter of weeks, I do think it's a positive sign for the future that we've decided to embrace new ideas and try a different approach.  I'm curious what will be the first issue they tackle.  It would be great to see some kind of plan for us to finish things up in Iraq in the next year or so. 

In any case, it's going to be exciting to see issues tackled from a different perspective.  I know a number of people who think Obama is a socialist and we're all going to have to kiss our freedom goodbye now, but I think that's a bit of a leap, myself.  I have to admit I'm relieved that the next Supreme Court justices nominated will not be of the far-right variety. 

What happened in South Dakota? They passed the ban on abortion, didn't they?  I'll go investigate.   :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 11:53:04 AM
Well AZ passed the ban on gay marriage. :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 05, 2008, 11:57:56 AM
SD did NOT pass the ban.  Good for them.  They tried it a few years ago with no exceptions whatsoever and thought they'd do better this year with these provisions:

Quote
But opponents argued the exceptions were still too narrow -- abortions were only permissible if the woman identified her assailant and proved paternity through DNA testing, or if a doctor found the mother faced possible organ failure if the pregnancy came to term.

There was a measure here in CO to define "personhood" as a fertilized egg.  It was soundly defeated, I'm glad to say. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cristin on November 05, 2008, 12:01:19 PM
btw, wendolf when you get back here, I want a full report on Grant Park!!!

Okay, I haven't caught up on the NINE pages of posts since I left, but I did see summerteeth's post so I'm here to report back. The rally (is rally the right word?) in Grant Park was amazing! Thousands and thousands of people peacefully celebrating an historic night. The ethnic diversity was so wonderful, although the crowd was mostly young -- probably the majority of the people we saw were under 30. But then again, we weren't able to get tickets to the "elite" (and by elite, I mean 70,000 people) area to actually see Obama -- that's probably where more of the "older" people were. Anyway, you kind of felt like you just wanted to hug everyone. There was a little typical booing and such whenever McCain's name was mentioned (I hate booing), but other than that the crowd was really respectful and happy and just excited. I saw several people in tears.

It was safe and well organized and my friend and I were amazed that we got down there and home with absolutely no traffic! I have no idea how that is possible other than maybe we were the only ones who drove! They actually closed of blocks and blocks of Michigan Avenue and it was just filled with people. Oceans and oceans of people. I'm anxious to hear how many people they thought showed up because I really have no idea. I've been downtown for the Marathon and this blew that away. Anyway, the whole experience made the night so special. I bought a "I was there!" button and a Obama/Biden hat for my daughter. So cool. I think I'm still a little in shock. But good shock.  ;)

wendolf I was there last night as well, I was fortunate enough to be able to get into the ticketed area, but since I didn't arrive downtown until around 6:45, I was nowhere near the stage where Obama was to be speaking, I could see the stage kind of, but I mostly just watched on the Jumbotrons. It was a completely surreal experience when CNN called it for Obama, just to be with that massive crowd of people that all felt the same way I did was amazing.

After the rally ended and everyone started walking towards the CTA or whatever mode of transportation they were using, it was so strange to see so many people just in the street, cheering and laughing and smiling.

My friends should have some pretty amazing photos from the rally posted later today, I can post them here if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 12:02:07 PM
 wavingicon

I'm interested!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Shroom on November 05, 2008, 12:39:02 PM
Well AZ passed the ban on gay marriage. :-\

Yeah, after the wonderful thrill of Obama's win last night, it was disappointing to wake up today and find out the gay marriage bans passed in Florida, Arizona, & (probably) California.  And the adoptive rights issue in Arkansas, too.  Way to harsh the office mellow. :(


I loved TLK's comment a few pages back, and it bears repeating:
Because by all means, if a court says that you're treating a group unfairly according to your constitution, you should change the constitution instead of saying, "whoops, sorry about all that unfairness."  Classy. ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 05, 2008, 12:54:56 PM
Msnbc.com is reporting that same-sex marriage ban has been approved by voters. LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/) >:(

 I guess we are not as liberal in CA as I thought.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 05, 2008, 12:57:47 PM
Obama's victory proves that we have come a long way in this country. The passage of the gay marriage ban proves that we still have a long way to go. Ultimately, I'm confident that Obama will move the country in a direction that will eventually be more accepting of gay marriage.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: denimvest on November 05, 2008, 01:00:46 PM
Wow, just wow.  I'm still speechless this morning.  Even though I voted for Obama, I live in TN which went red (again).  I had hoped it would be a closer race here because it seemed like people were pretty evenly divided.  

I have lived in the south my whole life and I quite frankly thought I'd never live to see the day that a minority would become our president.  Just thinking of it brings tears to my eyes.  For the first time in eight years, I'm proud to be an American.  I have been so ashamed of our country and the GOP for the better part of a decade.  I think Bush, Cheney and Rove have damaged our country and our reputation around the world and that made me angry and frustrated for a long time.  But I am so proud of our citizens for researching the issues on their own, disregarding the outright lies they were told, and getting involved in our government.  Especially the youth, which has been accused of being apathetic in the last two elections.

I see this election as a big step in rebuilding our burned bridges with other nations and hopefully our country will start moving in the right direction again.  I saw a guy last night on TV with a sign that said "Bush, you're FIRED." That's so awesome to know he's outta there.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 05, 2008, 01:04:29 PM
Msnbc.com is reporting that same-sex marriage ban has been approved by voters. LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/) >:(

 I guess we are not as liberal in CA as I thought.


That saddens and disgusts me. :(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 05, 2008, 01:11:47 PM
Wowser, the excitement continues. :D  It was great to read through all the thoughtful, heartfelt comments.   Just makes me happy to be alive during this very exciting time for the US.  :)

Well AZ passed the ban on gay marriage. :-\

Yeah, after the wonderful thrill of Obama's win last night, it was disappointing to wake up today and find out the gay marriage bans passed in Florida, Arizona, & (probably) California.  And the adoptive rights issue in Arkansas, too.  Way to harsh the office mellow. :(


I loved TLK's comment a few pages back, and it bears repeating:
Because by all means, if a court says that you're treating a group unfairly according to your constitution, you should change the constitution instead of saying, "whoops, sorry about all that unfairness."  Classy. ::)

For, sho.    The religious organizations who funded these initiatives (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122186063716658279.html?mod=googlenews_wsj), and campaigned for them openly from their pulpits should be treated as the Political Action Committees they have become.  Therefore, they should lose their tax exempt status. (http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/Tax_Exempt_Churches_Religious_Freedom_vs_Tax_Exemptions.htm)

Aaaaand, as I suspected, this ain't over yet.

via AMERICAblog (http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Americablog/~3/443466291/lawsuit-to-be-filed-to-stop-prop-8-hate.html)

   
Quote
NEW SAME GENDER MARRIAGE LAWSUIT

    Attorney Gloria Allred and her clients, a lesbian couple, who won right to marry in the California Supreme Court will hold a news conference to announce a new lawsuit against Prop. 8

    Attorney Gloria Allred and her clients, Robin Tyler and Diane Olson, will hold a news conference today November 5, 2008 at 12:00 noon at 6300 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1500 L.A. to announce a new lawsuit against Prop. 8. Prop. 8 intended to ban same gender marriages in California.

    Ms. Allred and her law firm represented the couple in their victory before the California Supreme Court. Her clients became the first to marry in Los Angeles County in June.

    Ms. Allred will file the new lawsuit today with the California Supreme Court on behalf of the couple. The new lawsuit will contain a new and controversial legal argument as to why Prop. 8 is unconstitutional. Copies of the lawsuit will be provided to the press at the news conference.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 05, 2008, 01:17:17 PM
Msnbc.com is reporting that same-sex marriage ban has been approved by voters. LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/) >:(

 I guess we are not as liberal in CA as I thought.


That saddens and disgusts me. :(

Yeah I just don't get that.  Why do people care who marries who?  I just can't wrap my brain around that at all. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 05, 2008, 01:23:14 PM
This is an incredible article. It's written by one of the daughters of George Wallace. It really made me cry...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/03/wallace.kennedy.obama/index.html
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 05, 2008, 01:27:13 PM
The proponents of Prop 8 apparently touted it about that if Prop 8 didn't pass, gay marriage would be taught in school (heavens! ::)) and churches would be forced to marry gays!  Of course gay marriage has been legal there for some months, and none of those things had happened.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of perfectly good propaganda?

It reminds me of the opponents of the Equal Rights Amendment who said it would force men and women to share a bathroom.  Um...no, it wouldn't have.  No bathroom language in it.  :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 01:37:34 PM
This is an incredible article. It's written by one of the daughters of George Wallace. It really made me cry...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/03/wallace.kennedy.obama/index.html

Oh larry that was beautiful, thank you for linking. And yes, I'm crying again.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 05, 2008, 01:57:49 PM
This is an incredible article. It's written by one of the daughters of George Wallace. It really made me cry...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/03/wallace.kennedy.obama/index.html

Oh larry that was beautiful, thank you for linking. And yes, I'm crying again.

I am glad that I am not the only one. I have been crying off and on all morning. I have been responding to a ton of emails from family and friends about the election. It's been an emotional morning for me.  But these are tears of joy... the best kind!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 05, 2008, 02:29:01 PM
The proponents of Prop 8 apparently touted it about that if Prop 8 didn't pass, gay marriage would be taught in school (heavens! ::)) and churches would be forced to marry gays!  Of course gay marriage has been legal there for some months, and none of those things had happened.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of perfectly good propaganda?

As Jon Stewart says, with the way some react, you'd think they think everyone will be forced to "gay marry" (the latter expression never fails to make me laugh!).  I hope people in the US eventually come around to this.  Gay marriage has been legal for a number of years in Canada and I can report that pandemonium hasn't broken out yet. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 05, 2008, 02:31:16 PM
The proponents of Prop 8 apparently touted it about that if Prop 8 didn't pass, gay marriage would be taught in school (heavens! ::)) and churches would be forced to marry gays!  Of course gay marriage has been legal there for some months, and none of those things had happened.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of perfectly good propaganda?

As Jon Stewart says, with the way some react, you'd think they think everyone will be forced to "gay marry" (the latter expression never fails to make me laugh!).  I hope people in the US eventually come around to this.  Gay marriage has been legal for a number of years in Canada and I can report that pandemonium hasn't broken out yet. 

One of the main arguments that the proponents of a ban on gay marriage have is that somehow gay marriages will destroy the sanctity of marriage... Really? I think hetrosexuals do a fine job of destroying their own marriages.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 05, 2008, 02:35:17 PM
There is something encouraging hidden in the results of Prop 8. Here's the exit polling broken down by age:

65: 61% yes
45-64: 54% yes
30-44: 55% yes
18-29: 39% yes

As a society, we are moving in the right direction, despite the efforts of people that resist change. It may take longer than we want, but we will get there.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 05, 2008, 02:35:44 PM
It blows my mind how people distort the facts about gay marriage. They just can't see any way besides it ruining the world. I only hope that yesterday can bring us a step closer to challenging some long held beliefs. If an African-American can be elected president, maybe there is hope that one day, anyone can get married.

(don't get me started on how wrong all the arguments are against it... makes me angry that people can be that ignorant)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 05, 2008, 02:37:04 PM
One of the main arguments that the proponents of a ban on gay marriage have is that somehow gay marriages will destroy the sanctity of marriage... Really? I think hetrosexuals do a fine job of destroying their own marriages.


Yeah, where are the propositions to ban divorce?  
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: denimvest on November 05, 2008, 02:48:44 PM
The proponents of Prop 8 apparently touted it about that if Prop 8 didn't pass, gay marriage would be taught in school (heavens! ::)) and churches would be forced to marry gays!  Of course gay marriage has been legal there for some months, and none of those things had happened.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of perfectly good propaganda?

As Jon Stewart says, with the way some react, you'd think they think everyone will be forced to "gay marry" (the latter expression never fails to make me laugh!).  I hope people in the US eventually come around to this.  Gay marriage has been legal for a number of years in Canada and I can report that pandemonium hasn't broken out yet. 

One of the main arguments that the proponents of a ban on gay marriage have is that somehow gay marriages will destroy the sanctity of marriage... Really? I think hetrosexuals do a fine job of destroying their own marriages.


Yes they do, which is why I can't understand the anti-gay marriage position.  If marriage is really so sacred in this country, why is the dicorce rate so high?  Yikes, you'd think they'd have a better argument by now.  I was watching a comedian one time who said that gay people should be allowed to marry and be as miserable as the rest of us  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 05, 2008, 02:53:42 PM
The proponents of Prop 8 apparently touted it about that if Prop 8 didn't pass, gay marriage would be taught in school (heavens! ::)) and churches would be forced to marry gays!  Of course gay marriage has been legal there for some months, and none of those things had happened.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of perfectly good propaganda?

As Jon Stewart says, with the way some react, you'd think they think everyone will be forced to "gay marry" (the latter expression never fails to make me laugh!).  I hope people in the US eventually come around to this.  Gay marriage has been legal for a number of years in Canada and I can report that pandemonium hasn't broken out yet. 

One of the main arguments that the proponents of a ban on gay marriage have is that somehow gay marriages will destroy the sanctity of marriage... Really? I think hetrosexuals do a fine job of destroying their own marriages.

Yes they do, which is why I can't understand the anti-gay marriage position.  If marriage is really so sacred in this country, why is the dicorce rate so high?  Yikes, you'd think they'd have a better argument by now.  I was watching a comedian one time who said that gay people should be allowed to marry and be as miserable as the rest of us  :D

I have heard this as well.  ;) Or at least let them get married so they can deal w/ the stupid in-law issues we have to deal with.  laughingicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 05, 2008, 02:55:03 PM
Quote
On a lighter note (because I really do need to stop crying)- Michigan passed its medical marijuana AND stem cell research proposals, and someone said "Hell yeah! Pretty soon we'll all be smoking weed and passing it to our clones!" Made me laugh.

Makes me proud to know things are going well in my old state.

As for Cali, it just seems weird that Californians would knock down an abortion ban but support a gay marriage ban. We had quite a bit of cash pushed into the state by people outside of it, which I totally disagree with. If the proposition doesn't affect your state, you shouldn't have a say in what my state does. I think the Yes on 8 people were so organized that it created this weird disconnect on the propositions. We knocked down a proposal to that would force girls to get parental consent for abortions, we overwhelmingly passed one that made farm conditions for animals more humane, and yet we put a gay marriage ban in place. WTF?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 05, 2008, 03:27:12 PM
I personally think the No on 8 campaign blew it. Their first wave of a ads were so careful NOT to mention gays, or gay marriage, that it smacked of cautiousness. It implied that somehow they were afraid to really come out and speak to the people about what this election was all about. The second wave of ads fixed that a little, but mostly spent their time rebutting the Yes on 8 ads. When you rebut an argument, you give it legitimacy. I think the No on 8 ads should have focused on love, on the giddy happiness of newlyweds, on honeymoons and housewarming, and then stamped a big X through it and asked the audience "Do you really want to take all this away? Do you really want to stand in the way of love?" I think the No on 8 campaign was too complacent too long. My husband, who is a fervid conservative and voted for Prop 8, kept asking me, "Where's the line? If you let gays marry, where do you draw the line?" To which I answered, "Why do we have to have a line?"

I put a handmade sign in the back window of my car that said, "Say Yes to love; say NO to Prop 8".  My daughter put a No on 8 sign in our yard. She called me at work yesterday to tell me that kids kept coming by our yard to try to steal our signs; some of them tried to trash/vandalize our yard. I went home early from work to keep an eye on them. Although we live in California, our particular corner of it is heavily Republican, Mormon and conservative. There was only one Obama sign on our block, and only a handful of No on 8 signs.  so I am especially proud that my state went blue, that it was our 55 electoral votes, the most in the nation, that helped cement Obama's victory. I hope he can truly bring us together and heal our divisions. He'll have to, considering what he's inheriting.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 05, 2008, 03:34:55 PM
Add me to the group that is so saddened by the ban on gay marriage in California (and other states, too). I'll never understand how the supreme court justices there, who have years of education and experience studying the constitution, declared gay marriage constitutional, but the average Joe Plumber is somehow more qualified to make the final call. Ridiculous. The encouraging note is in those statistics that Larrymcg quoted ... at least the younger generation is learning and hopefully will lead the charge to give the same rights to all people. For now, at least I have the wonderful consolation that Obama won.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: chellman on November 05, 2008, 03:40:23 PM
NeverEnoughJam I agree with you that the no on Prop 8 campaign should have focused on love! I'm heartbroken that my state passed this proposition.  Whatever people’s views on homosexuality are denying the rights of others is never ok.  I know many same sex couples that are married and I think if people could see the loving relationships they are in they would maybe not be so quick to pass the proposition. 
Another reason I'm disappointed is because of the direction the yes on prop 8 camp went.  The proposition has absolutely nothing to do with children but that was the only thing they focused on.  I'm sure some people thought this proposition was about not teaching children about same sex couples and that is why they voted for it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 05, 2008, 03:57:52 PM
May I ask a potentially stupid question about Prop 8 in California?

What are the chances that it will actually get written into the CA constitution? Can't opponents of the amendment take it through the courts? Could the issue be seen by the Supreme Court? Because it seems like, if challenged, it'd eventually get turned down. But I don't know if that's something that can be done with something that was actually voted on.

Anyway, the bans on gay rights is really . . . horrifying. I'm so proud that we elected Obama in this country, but it feels like we're eradicating one prejudice in this country (and it's about time) but letting another prejudice flourish. Oy, the unpleasant contradictions of America.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cristin on November 05, 2008, 03:59:19 PM
Some pictures from the rally in Chicago last night

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3072/3005455705_b0ed9acb2e.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/3006291216_53745e98bc.jpg)

I'll put the rest behind a spoiler for size, I will also be posting more later!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 05, 2008, 04:01:43 PM
My downer post of the day... though it's not even that downer.  This was a great win for the country, but we still have a long way to go.  

While Obama won the electoral college with 67% of the vote, vs. McCain's 33%, he only won the popular vote by 6 percentage points, 52% to 46%.  Of course these aren't finalized yet, but still, those are the voters that he needs to win over if this country is going to truly heal.  And yes, I believe that he can.  

I will be very interested to see the election in 4 years....
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 05, 2008, 04:07:11 PM
Good point, notatoy, but also remember that Bush won his "mandate" in 2004 with a smaller percentage of the popular vote and much fewer electoral votes. I think Obama will do a much better job of bringing the country together post-election than Bush did.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 05, 2008, 04:09:55 PM
GREAT photos, czarag00! What a beautiful night (and I'm not just talking about the amazing weather). I didn't bring my camera (I know... what was I thinking?), but my friend did. I'll have her send me her pics, and if there are any good ones I'll come back and post 'em. I loved the 'USA' lit up in the building windows. That was so cool!

And I agree notatoy ... I wish the popular vote difference was greater because I think that would show a definite shift in our country's overall thinking. But hey, as long as he won. I won't get greedy ... yet.  ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cristin on November 05, 2008, 04:18:01 PM
Thanks wendolf! I wish I could say that I took the photos (I didn't bring my camera), but it was my best friend's husband who just happens to be a photojournalist who took those amazing shots! It was such a wonderful evening, and it was amazing to be a part of something that is so historic.

If anyone is interested, the Chicago Tribune posted a timelapse of the rally, I can't get it to embed, so I'll just post the link!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/video/?slug=chi-obamatimelapse081105-wn
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 05, 2008, 04:24:56 PM
May I ask a potentially stupid question about Prop 8 in California?

What are the chances that it will actually get written into the CA constitution? Can't opponents of the amendment take it through the courts? Could the issue be seen by the Supreme Court? Because it seems like, if challenged, it'd eventually get turned down. But I don't know if that's something that can be done with something that was actually voted on.

The No on 8 folks have already filed suit in Federal court to stop it. The California Supreme Court cannot even hear the case, much less overrule it, since its job is to interpret the Constitution, not change it. The only hope for opponents now is to get the US Supreme Court to rule that the amendment is against the US Constitution, and somehow violates the civil rights of gays in California.

There is no guarantee that the US Supreme Court would overturn Prop 8. I don't know that there is solid legal ground under the idea that anyone has a "right" to marry. Even if the US Supreme Court struck down Prop 8, there's the danger it would turn out being, like Roe v Wade, shaky law that is vulnerable to a change in the makeup of the court. One more conservative SC Justice, and Roe v Wade will be overturned. Do we really want to put gay marriage on the same footing?

The only way to secure gay marriage is to have it spelled out explicitly in some constitution (state or federal) that citizens have a civil right to it, like the right to freedom of speech and assembly. This is not something the Courts can establish; it has to come from the state legislatures. I think in the long run, the proponents of gay marriage would be better off getting the California state legislature to repeal Prop 8 and replace it with something explicitly supporting gay marriage. And frankly, I think that's their best shot, even if it's a long one.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 05, 2008, 04:30:49 PM
If anyone is interested, the Chicago Tribune posted a timelapse of the rally, I can't get it to embed, so I'll just post the link!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/video/?slug=chi-obamatimelapse081105-wn

Thanks for posting that, that's so cool - I love how you can tell the moment they called it for Obama  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 05, 2008, 05:40:48 PM
Some Obama cartoons:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 06:01:47 PM
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/zerohhero/promised-land.jpg)
And the tears are back. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 05, 2008, 06:19:41 PM
This one got me started again because it reminded me of the famous Bill Mauldin Kennedy assassination editorial cartoon.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/zerohhero/fitzsimmons.jpg)

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/neverbeendone/ObitMauldinLincoln.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 05, 2008, 06:26:40 PM
I loved those cartoons. Every single one. Nearly brought me to tears (again).

Oh, also, I was reminded of this.
I was babysitting today, and when a picture of Obama came up on the screen, I held her up, and told her that man made history yesterday, and changed the world forever. And I got teary eyed imaginging that when she grows up (she's 1), this will be everyday (I hope). Race won't be a big issue for voters, gender won't be an issue.

I only hope that other ideas follow - that the right to choose will still be our right. That everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, can get married.
That's the world I want to see for her.

(and then I have to remind myself that its not even my daughter!)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 05, 2008, 06:35:34 PM
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/4/7/4/5/8/2/webimg/146381783_tp.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 05, 2008, 06:39:01 PM
Quote
There is no guarantee that the US Supreme Court would overturn Prop 8. I don't know that there is solid legal ground under the idea that anyone has a "right" to marry....

The only way to secure gay marriage is to have it spelled out explicitly in some constitution (state or federal) that citizens have a civil right to it, like the right to freedom of speech and assembly.

Actually, there is a case -- Loving v. Virginia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia) -- that made it to the Supreme Court, ending legal restrictions on marriage based on race. And the Court unanimously overturned the Virginia law based on the 14th amendmend of the Constitution. Here's part of the decision...

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

Replace "race" with "sexual orientation" and this could be an easy case if argued right.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 05, 2008, 06:45:38 PM
I don't think the current composition of the Court will see it that way. Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, and Alito certainly won't. And even assuming the four left leaning justices (Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, Breyer) voted that way (which isn't a guarantee), the swing vote would be Kennedy. Now it's true that he likes to be the cneter of historic decisions. He's been the swing vote in cases that upheld flag burning, that upheld Roe, and in one of my favorite cases Lawrence v. Texas, he overturned sodomy laws. Still, I don't think he's ready to go quite this far, even if there were 4 other justices willing to go with him.

Now I agree that the Loving decision (one of th ebest in Supreme Court history) is valid precedent for overturning anti-gay marriage laws. I just don't think the court will agree. That's why it's important for Obama to get some good Justices on the court. 7 of the last 9 have been appointed by Republicans.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 07:01:19 PM
I loved those cartoons. Every single one. Nearly brought me to tears (again).

Oh, also, I was reminded of this.
I was babysitting today, and when a picture of Obama came up on the screen, I held her up, and told her that man made history yesterday, and changed the world forever. And I got teary eyed imaginging that when she grows up (she's 1), this will be everyday (I hope). Race won't be a big issue for voters, gender won't be an issue.

I only hope that other ideas follow - that the right to choose will still be our right. That everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, can get married.
That's the world I want to see for her.

(and then I have to remind myself that its not even my daughter!)

Em I had a co-worker, who's African American, tell me last night she was sitting around the TV with her 7 year old daughter who turned to her and said "mommy...so I can be president?" and for the first time in her life she was able to tell her yes and really believe it.

The changes our parents and grandparents have seen, I can only imagine what we'll witness.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 05, 2008, 08:16:07 PM
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

Replace "race" with "sexual orientation" and this could be an easy case if argued right.

sharky, thanks for looking up that opinion. I was aware of Loving vs. Virginia, but hadn't read the actual language. If the Court found marriage to be a basic civil right, then you're right, there might be a chance.

However, from a practical standpoint, that's only a start, and a shaky start. Look at how vulnerable Roe v Wade is to being overturned--all it would take is one justice switching their vote, or being replaced, and Roe v Wade could be overturned. Far better to have these principles enshrined in a Constitutional amendment, where they are beyond the reach of the Court.

In history, every major social revolution instigated by non-legislative means has been later supported by a Constitutional amendment to cement it. For example, the Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves by fiat, but what really nailed it was the thirteenth amendment outlawing slavery. Ditto women's suffrage--although Wisconsin and other individual states enfranchised women, it took a Constitutional amendment to make it universal. But Roe v Wade has stood for 35 years without the support of a Constitutional amendment. Ultimately, our "rights" to abortion and gay marriage will rest on amendments to the Constitution. Yes, they are cumbersome and expensive and require lots of discussion and argument, you can't steamroller your way to a Constitional amendment. But in the end, it's virtually impregnable.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 05, 2008, 08:37:40 PM
From my hometown's paper...a blue city lost in a red state:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/tfinptpybd/110508branch630.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: AngieMae on November 05, 2008, 08:41:57 PM
I just want to ask a general question to everyone out there. What is it about politics that makes people think that if you don't follow their belief systems, then you are wrong and stupid? I have come across this my whole life. Why is it wrong to not believe something others believe? Why does that make me an uneducated, unpatriotic, stuck in my ways, racist?

I watch so many media outlets that openly ridicule people who believe like me. I am a moron for having faith in God and being a Christian. I am someone who is racist for not voting a certain way (never mind the fact that I didn't believe in the purpose). I am uneducated because I don't interpret information the same way others do, or just don't believe the same things others believe as fact.

I watched about 5 minutes of Keith Oberman one night and was boggled by the fact that he put words into the mouths of others, even with their specific quote on the screen, took things out of context and just openly mocked said person. Why? Because he didn't agree with their train of thought. Not agreeing is one thing, putting words into others mouth's to fill your own agenda is completely outrageous. Now, I know there has been issue taken with Fox News. They way I see it based on other networks, who cares if they are conservative? There are enough liberal media outlets out there, who cares if there is a conservative one? But you rarely hear people bitch about MSNBC being too "liberal". I just don't see the justice in that. that said, just don't watch a station if you don't agree. I won't be watching MSNBC any time soon. if you hate Fox that much, just don't watch it.

I understand that we are living in a nation that encourages differences in thoughts and beliefs, along with freedom of speech, but why does that mean the other person is an idiot for not thinking like you do? In the end who is to say what is right and what is wrong?

Right now I'm just afraid for what's to come in the world. I don't know enough about the president elect, and it scares me. You may disagree, but all I ask is that you respect my opinion and don't think I'm an idiot.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 05, 2008, 08:52:35 PM
It riles people up. When you ask someone to question something they believe in it makes things complicated. Trust me this is on both sides of this election race this year we've all been called idiots in the last few days. That's why in a lot of families you don't discuss religion or politics at the dinner table.

You can't ask someone to step in your shoes until you've tried on theirs.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: AngieMae on November 05, 2008, 09:03:07 PM
It riles people up. When you ask someone to question something they believe in it makes things complicated. Trust me this is on both sides of this election race this year we've all been called idiots in the last few days. That's why in a lot of families you don't discuss religion or politics at the dinner table.

You can't ask someone to step in your shoes until you've tried on theirs.

Unfortunately, through my experience, it's not a matter of asking you to question your beliefs as it is just openly ridiculing you for believing that way.

I was asking on behalf of both sides. I wasn't meaning people should believe like me, by all means. I just don't understand why people have to be so vicious about it. Yes, both sides did do it, I am not pointing fingers to anyone in particular because so many people are guilty of this act.

The MSNBC comment was just throwing out an example of the other side of the Fox News debate.


Unfortunately when it comes to this topic, you can't say anything without offending someone.

(This is more a continuation of my other post, not directed just at you dm).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on November 05, 2008, 09:03:18 PM
I just want to ask a general question to everyone out there. What is it about politics that makes people think that if you don't follow their belief systems, then you are wrong and stupid? I have come across this my whole life. Why is it wrong to not believe something others believe? Why does that make me an uneducated, unpatriotic, stuck in my ways, racist?

I watch so many media outlets that openly ridicule people who believe like me. I am a moron for having faith in God and being a Christian. I am someone who is racist for not voting a certain way (never mind the fact that I didn't believe in the purpose). I am uneducated because I don't interpret information the same way others do, or just don't believe the same things others believe as fact.

I watched about 5 minutes of Keith Oberman one night and was boggled by the fact that he put words into the mouths of others, even with their specific quote on the screen, took things out of context and just openly mocked said person. Why? Because he didn't agree with their train of thought. Not agreeing is one thing, putting words into others mouth's to fill your own agenda is completely outrageous. Now, I know there has been issue taken with Fox News. They way I see it based on other networks, who cares if they are conservative? There are enough liberal media outlets out there, who cares if there is a conservative one? But you rarely hear people bitch about MSNBC being too "liberal". I just don't see the justice in that. that said, just don't watch a station if you don't agree. I won't be watching MSNBC any time soon. if you hate Fox that much, just don't watch it.

I understand that we are living in a nation that encourages differences in thoughts and beliefs, along with freedom of speech, but why does that mean the other person is an idiot for not thinking like you do? In the end who is to say what is right and what is wrong?

Right now I'm just afraid for what's to come in the world. I don't know enough about the president elect, and it scares me. You may disagree, but all I ask is that you respect my opinion and don't think I'm an idiot.

I suspect that you and I might disagree on certain political issues, but this does not make me or you more or less American.  That, in a nutshell, is the beauty of this country!!

Some thoughts:

1) I think the primary issue is inflexibility.  We divide ourselves by party lines and the consequence of our system is that there seems to be very little space in between.  There are issues where my opinion straddles party lines, but since I (basically) only have two choices some of those gray areas are painted black and white.

2) The media is fundamentally biased.  People have feelings and there is no denying that.  I watch neither Fox nor MSNBC.  On that note...

3) A couple of years ago I spent a summer in Europe.  In such travels you meet many people and as a Texan people naturally will bring up George W. Bush.  I must be honest and say that my politics were never the same as his but as an American I maintained that he was my president and that even though his decisions were different than the ones I would have made I believed he had the country's best interest at heart.

4) One person calling another person an idiot for not sharing the same belief is a lousy defense mechanism.  We (regardless of our beliefs) rise above those who would ridicule us because they are afraid of being taken out of a comfort zone.





Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 05, 2008, 10:40:03 PM
AngieMae, unfortunately, our brains have actually developed shortcuts to make sense of the world and one of those is to group things that are the same as us and things that are different from us.  Unfortunately, people tend to put those mechanisms to poor use at times, discriminating and wanting to exclude that which is different and cling to what is similar/familiar.  Everyone does that to various degrees, and everyone experiences this feeling of being excluded at times or having their opinions not being respected.

The best thing that I can say is that everyone has to try to see the world from the eyes of others.  I must say, that's why I've loved living in a big city that is so multicultural.  I may be bewildered by what people say or do at times, but most of the time, there is a good reason for why people think a certain way, even if I disagree with it.

Quote
I watch so many media outlets that openly ridicule people who believe like me. I am a moron for having faith in God and being a Christian. I am someone who is racist for not voting a certain way (never mind the fact that I didn't believe in the purpose). I am uneducated because I don't interpret information the same way others do, or just don't believe the same things others believe as fact.

Faith, for example, not really an issue in Canada since most people's faith is a very personal thing that is rarely discussed in the public place or the government (e.g., religious beliefs are never ever brought up in political campaigns here), but when I watch American news and politics, I actually can't believe what it must be like if you are not someone who is Christian or who believes in God.  Those people in the US seem not to be part of the discourse.  So you know, while you may feel vilified for your religious beliefs, I'd suspect that plenty of other people feel their voice is not heard.  It's all a question of perspective.

As for Keith Olbermann and Bill O'Reilly, while I'm sure they both speak for a number of people, these opinionated voices are so extreme, it's unlikely that they speak for the majority of people.  They're in the business of ratings, not of nuanced thinking.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 05, 2008, 10:54:13 PM
Quote
Faith, for example, not really an issue in Canada since most people's faith is a very personal thing that is rarely discussed in the public place or the government (e.g., religious beliefs are never ever brought up in political campaigns here), but when I watch American news and politics, I actually can't believe what it must be like if you are not someone who is Christian or who believes in God.  Those people in the US seem not to be part of the discourse.  So you know, while you may feel vilified for your religious beliefs, I'd suspect that plenty of other people feel their voice is not heard.  It's all a question of perspective.

For every racist Christian, there was a Prius-driving elitist. As a practicing Catholic who's husband drives a Prius, I was very confused this election about which stereotype I hated more.

It's a strange thing here that we so value this country's Bill of Rights yet everyone seems to forget that the First Amendment clearly separates church from state. After this election, I don't know if I want that Christian label anyways after the way some "Christians" acted this election. When did it become OK as a Christian to call someone a terrorist just because you disagree with them?

And while I'm on my soapbox, I have worked as a journalist for more than 10 years now for papers and Web sites you have heard of. NEVER has anyone ever said in a news meeting that I've been in that we have to spin the news one way or the other. Journalists take our jobs very seriously, especially at the big papers, and we are as unbiased as possible. Sure, Fox has an obvious conservative bias and it's obvious that MSNBC is taking on a blatant liberal bias to get better ratings as well. But when all is said and done, 99% of journalists give both sides to the story. The problem is that conservatives don't want to hear the liberal side and liberals don't want to the conservative side so it's "the liberal media" or "the gotcha media" or "Fox News" or whatever.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: untherapy on November 06, 2008, 04:13:34 AM
My beef about the way politics is presented over the mass media, as a college student, is that it's turning off my generation to the political system. Rock the Vote is over and gone (or so it seems), and there were articles being published every day in our campus newspaper with phrases including "your vote doesn't matter", "when people tell you to vote, slap them in the face with the electoral college", "I don't even want to know the candidates names", "who wants to waste $0.50 to mail in their ballot?", or my personal favorite: "why waste time voting when you could get drunk and watch ESPN". And (no offense to the many I will surely offend right now) I go to a private school on the Top 20 lists, not a public party school!!!

Politics have never been my favorite thing, and recently I've had trouble deciding who to vote for, but it disgusts me the way young people are looking at our political landscape and saying "f--- it". What's worse is that people are so PASSIONATE about their apathy, to the extent that in their diatribes about why you shouldn't vote they talk about how much they hate political types pushing their agenda around... The hypocrisy is so thick you could chew on it... But in all reality few people I know actually voted - they either didn't care, didn't want to waste the time/gas/postage, forgot, aren't registered, or were genuinely disappointed that S. Carolina didn't put Stephen Colbert on their ballot.

To make myself more unpopular, I had the opportunity (because of my personal beliefs) to vote for Prop 8, and I'm proud that it passed. I realize this means little in the long trail of lawsuits that will follow, but I had the chance to vote on something I cared about and it made a difference! I honestly pray for the day when my generation stops taking America for granted (i.e. accepting federal grants to go to college and then griping about their country) and realizes that it's part of the system and needs to man up and take responsibility.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 04:22:42 AM
I understand that we are living in a nation that encourages differences in thoughts and beliefs, along with freedom of speech, but why does that mean the other person is an idiot for not thinking like you do?

No, actually, we don't. We live in a society that SAYS it encourages differences in thought and belief, but actually does its level best to enforce some kind of conformity. We obsess over our differences because we're insecure about being different. We are insecure about being different because we live in a society that ruthlessly and viciously attacks anyone who actually IS different in thought, belief and skin color. We aren't alone, of course. All the other nations are the same way. It's the human condition. The difference is that at least our founding documents acknowledge that we can and should do better.

Quote
In the end who is to say what is right and what is wrong?

A jury of our peers.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 04:27:22 AM
My beef about the way politics is presented over the mass media, as a college student, is that it's turning off my generation to the political system.

Then your generation needs to grow up. The media have ALWAYS been mad dogs when it comes to politics--go back and read what was printed during the first five Presidential campaigns in this country. It makes this campaign look as decorous as a tea party at the Queen's. It's not the media's job to entertain the voters into voting; it is the duty of a citizen to do the hard work of studying and asking questions and research and THINKING that precede a vote. Democracy is hard work. Man up and do it.

Quote
To make myself more unpopular, I had the opportunity (because of my personal beliefs) to vote for Prop 8, and I'm proud that it passed. I realize this means little in the long trail of lawsuits that will follow, but I had the chance to vote on something I cared about and it made a difference!

May I ask why you voted for Prop 8? I'm curious. Not trying to insult or offend you. I just want to know the basis for your vote.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: untherapy on November 06, 2008, 05:39:39 AM
My beef about the way politics is presented over the mass media, as a college student, is that it's turning off my generation to the political system.

Then your generation needs to grow up. The media have ALWAYS been mad dogs when it comes to politics--go back and read what was printed during the first five Presidential campaigns in this country. It makes this campaign look as decorous as a tea party at the Queen's. It's not the media's job to entertain the voters into voting; it is the duty of a citizen to do the hard work of studying and asking questions and research and THINKING that precede a vote. Democracy is hard work. Man up and do it.

Quote
To make myself more unpopular, I had the opportunity (because of my personal beliefs) to vote for Prop 8, and I'm proud that it passed. I realize this means little in the long trail of lawsuits that will follow, but I had the chance to vote on something I cared about and it made a difference!

May I ask why you voted for Prop 8? I'm curious. Not trying to insult or offend you. I just want to know the basis for your vote.

I agree :)

The concise answer to your question is that I am a Christian. The informative answer is that, to me, marriage is more that legal state, document, or even a label. Marriage is a sacred bond created by God to exist between a man and a woman in a way that mirrors His relationship with His people on earth. (If references are of interest to anyone I'd be more than happy to provide!) Also, the Bible clearly states that homosexual actions are sinful, and so I cannot endorse legal protection and provision for those actions. There are lots of other actions that fall under this category, but mostly they are not on the ballot...

A phrase I like is "love the sinner, hate the sin", which applies to every person in any situation, including homosexuality. I'm from San Francisco and have LOTS of close friends who are homosexuals - I think (and certainly hope) that they all know how much I love them, and how valuable they are to me, even though they know that I think what they do is wrong. I am very much a proponent of gay rights, and completely support equal legal rights for domestic partnerships as far as taxes, health care, pensions, inheritances, etc. are concerned, but because of my beliefs about marriage and the sinfulness of homosexual behavior I can't support gay marriage.

To sum up, while I take my religious faith very seriously, I'm not the type of person who feels that there is anything about gay people themselves that is dirty/evil/sick/insert keyword here. I know for a fact that there's no such thing as a "sin scale", and that my bad-mouthing a friend yesterday is the same in God's book as gay sex, premarital sex, or anything else you can name. So I voted Yes to stand up for what I know to be true, not to cut down my friends or any other members of the gay community. God loves everyone (despite what some cults say), and I hope we Christians can do better at reflecting that in the future.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 09:59:00 AM
Quote
Marriage is a sacred bond created by God to exist between a man and a woman in a way that mirrors His relationship with His people on earth.  (If references are of interest to anyone I'd be more than happy to provide!)

I guess my marriage to my husband means nothing, then, since neither of us are really "believers."  And no, thanks, the very last thing I want are the biblical references.

Your pride in banning other human beings from marriage because of your personal religious beliefs saddens me and your "some of my best friends are gay" statements are cliche.  I don't have anything more to say to you on this subject, because I'm sure neither of us will change the other's mind.

It surprises me to hear that your campus newspaper prints articles with the sorts of phrases you mentioned.  Do you actually mean articles, sanctioned by the editor of the newspaper, or do you mean letters to the editor?  If that had been the actual position of my campus newspaper, I would have stopped reading it.  That sort of attitude is sad.  I'd be interested to hear from some of our other college students about whether this is the type of thing they saw in their campus newspapers. 

Regardless of whether the youth got out to vote, certainly the rest of us did -- voter turnout was said to be the highest in more than 40 years.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 06, 2008, 10:05:07 AM
untherapy, what you've described among those you go to school with is the direct opposite of much of my college experience. Also, since I've been out talking to people, mainly college students, first trying to register voters and then trying to "survey" who they were planning to vote for, many definitely cared about this election. What you described made me go, "Crazy" because it's foreign to my experience. Not to mention that the youth vote came out in record numbers and essentially solidified the result.

I guess it depends on where you go?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 10:18:06 AM
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet...

Quote
Connecticut voters rejected a plan to hold a rare convention to make changes to its constitution. Opponents of same-sex marriage had expressed hope that a convention could lead to a ballot initiative to ban the practice, which the Connecticut Supreme Court ruled legal last month.

Connecticut is the third state, after Massachusetts and California, to allow marriage between people of the same sex.

Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/us/politics/06ballot.html)

I don't know whether gays from other states could be married in Connecticut.  I know that Massachusetts has an old law (a holdover from the anti-miscegenation laws) that says if you can't be legally married in your own state, you can't be married in Massachusetts either.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Also in 1913, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, which had abolished its anti-miscegenation law in 1843, enacted a measure that prevented couples who could not marry in their home state from marrying in Massachusetts.

Anyway, what California struck down, Connecticut strengthened.  It's not exactly a wash, but it's something.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sweetpea on November 06, 2008, 10:51:51 AM
I asked my coworker about this yesterday - if she and her partner could get married elsewhere.  They could, but Illinois doesn't recognize the union so the point is moo.   :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 11:01:06 AM
The concise answer to your question is that I am a Christian. The informative answer is that, to me, marriage is more that legal state, document, or even a label. Marriage is a sacred bond created by God to exist between a man and a woman in a way that mirrors His relationship with His people on earth. (If references are of interest to anyone I'd be more than happy to provide!) Also, the Bible clearly states that homosexual actions are sinful, and so I cannot endorse legal protection and provision for those actions. There are lots of other actions that fall under this category, but mostly they are not on the ballot...

A phrase I like is "love the sinner, hate the sin", which applies to every person in any situation, including homosexuality. I'm from San Francisco and have LOTS of close friends who are homosexuals - I think (and certainly hope) that they all know how much I love them, and how valuable they are to me, even though they know that I think what they do is wrong. I am very much a proponent of gay rights, and completely support equal legal rights for domestic partnerships as far as taxes, health care, pensions, inheritances, etc. are concerned, but because of my beliefs about marriage and the sinfulness of homosexual behavior I can't support gay marriage.

To sum up, while I take my religious faith very seriously, I'm not the type of person who feels that there is anything about gay people themselves that is dirty/evil/sick/insert keyword here. I know for a fact that there's no such thing as a "sin scale", and that my bad-mouthing a friend yesterday is the same in God's book as gay sex, premarital sex, or anything else you can name. So I voted Yes to stand up for what I know to be true, not to cut down my friends or any other members of the gay community. God loves everyone (despite what some cults say), and I hope we Christians can do better at reflecting that in the future.

This is a subject I could literally talk about for hours, but I'm going to try to keep it brief. I, too, consider myself a Christian, but what bothers me is that there only seems to be room for one definition of what being a "Christian" means these days. The God (or the Divine, or whatever term you want to use) that I believe in is more concerned with justice and love than judgement of others' sins. A narrow, literal interpretation of a 2,000+ year-old document saddens me, because I believe the Bible is more than the sum of its parts. I look to what Jesus taught -- love, generosity, justice, bucking the status quo. There is no record that he ever said a word about homosexuality being a sin. But he talked a hell of a lot about justice. So in my mind, justice and love win out every time.

In reading theologians like Marcus Borg and John Shelby Spong, I am supported in my idea that there is more than one way to be a Christian. I am more interested in seeking and asking questions than in having the "right" answers. I, too, could give you Bible verses to support my view but the truth is, there is no winning this argument -- each person is entitled to their own views on their faith. But I just wanted to state that being Christian, to me, is not a clear cut reason to support Proposition 8. I am a Christian, but I also support a woman's right to choose and gay marriage.

Now, I have a question ... or maybe it's more of an ironic, rhetorical statement: I was reading that Proposition 8 was boosted by the large African American voter turnout in California because most African Americans do not support gay marriage. I find this interesting that a group of people that has been wrongly discriminated against for hundreds of years (for something that they have no control over -- the color of their skin) would then discriminate against another group of people (for something that I believe they have no control over -- their sexual orientation). It makes me sad. (I say this realizing that obviously not ALL African Americans are against gay marriage ... but according to what I've read, many are.) Thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: AngieMae on November 06, 2008, 11:03:41 AM
untherapy, thank you for your post. You were able to describe how I feel to a tee about my Christianity. I too think that there should be gay rights in a legal sense, however when it comes to marriage, as stated in the bible, it is between a man and a woman.

That said, too late kev, I truly hope you don't actually believe that because we are "believers" we are narrow minded and cliched. You don't have to believe in a higher power, that's your choice, but don't let that sadden you or judge those who do (contrary to what some think, Christians aren't crazy bible wielding psychopaths. We are just as confused about the way of the world as those who don't believe in God, and we fight just as hard for the rights of people. Somethings, however, because of the bible and our faith we just can't go along with. I don't care what anyone else says, it's a constant battle to know what to believe and what not to, but deep down I can't not believe in God.) We believe what we believe, and you don't. It's not a matter of us having pride over not wanting everyone to have basic human rights. As I've stated, as well as untherapy, we think homosexuals should have all the legal rights in regards to legal issues, but when it comes to marriage, we feel that is a sacred unity between a man and a wife. There are other ways they can show their love and unity, just not under God's doing. You may not believe in God, but you got married, something that, we believe, was created for God and under His name. Again, you don't have to believe this, I am just letting you know that's what it is as viewed by a Christian.

This is a tricky tricky subject, as I have seen get way out of hand in the past. I just wanted to share my side of the story.

ETA, I just also had another thought, while someone mentioned sin. God will ultimately forgive us for our sins (homosexuality, cursing, adultery, you name it), if we truly believe and ask for His forgiveness. No one is perfect, but in God's eyes, because He created us and all, will forgive our sins.

(I probably just dug myself into a deeper hole.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Elly on November 06, 2008, 11:11:43 AM
Quote
I honestly pray for the day when my generation stops taking America for granted (i.e. accepting federal grants to go to college and then griping about their country) and realizes that it's part of the system and needs to man up and take responsibility.

Untherapy, those federal grants you speak of are the only way I can go to college because my mother is terminally ill and we lost everything (including my college fund) and yet I work and contribute to society just as much as you but because I get grants and scholarships, I shouldn't be able to go to college to better myself so that hopefully I can pay for my own children's college tuition someday? What are lower-income families supposed to do? Not go to college because they can't afford it?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 11:14:39 AM
I don't want to get too mired into this whole debate, but I just wanted to say that wendolf, you described perfectly how I feel about the whole situation.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 06, 2008, 11:16:59 AM
Just two add my two cents on the issue.

My religion guides me everyday. Everyday I pray to God for guidance in my daily life. I attend mass on a regular basis. And I truly believe that God has a purpose for everything. More importantly as a Mexican-Catholic, I look to the Virgin Mary to guide me. My religion is who I am, I pray w/ my daughter and night. I have religious artifacts in every room in my home.  It is one aspect of who I am!

I know plenty of practicing Catholics that voted against Proposition 8. It doesn’t make me less of a Catholic or them. I will not vote something just because the church tells me to. They have done so many things that I have disagreed with, but it has not deterred or swayed my fundamental belief in God.

However, I voted against Proposition 8. And I don’t think twice for it. Why? Because it’s a fundamental civil rights issue. It should not be a religious issue at all. Even if the Proposition had passed religious organization did not have to marry the gay couples. The “Vote Yes on Proposition 8” sacred the crap out of people with the stupid ads and using an obscure Education Code which stated that marriage will be discussed in the classroom. I have been a teacher and I can tell you that it is the teacher who controls the discussion in the classroom – not the students. If a teacher doesn’t want to talk about something they won’t -- Period.  It's called having good classroom management skills.


Now, I have a question ... or maybe it's more of an ironic, rhetorical statement: I was reading that Proposition 8 was boosted by the large African American voter turnout in California because most African Americans do not support gay marriage. I find this interesting that a group of people that has been wrongly discriminated against for hundreds of years (for something that they have no control over -- the color of their skin) would then discriminate against another group of people (for something that I believe they have no control over -- their sexual orientation). It makes me sad. (I say this realizing that obviously not ALL African Americans are against gay marriage ... but according to what I've read, many are.) Thoughts on this?

I was shocked by this as well.   I think the stigma of being gay in the African American community is still so strong that they are not willing to accept gay marriage.


Quote
I honestly pray for the day when my generation stops taking America for granted (i.e. accepting federal grants to go to college and then griping about their country) and realizes that it's part of the system and needs to man up and take responsibility.

Untherapy, those federal grants you speak of are the only way I can go to college because my mother is terminally ill and we lost everything (including my college fund) and yet I work and contribute to society just as much as you but because I get grants and scholarships, I shouldn't be able to go to college to better myself so that hopefully I can pay for my own children's college tuition? What are lower-income families supposed to do? Not go to college because they can't afford it?

I used the same grants... guess I have to give the degree back...  :-\ And I accepted the money and will continue to "gripe" about our country -- I call it questioning the actions of our government, which I am pretty sure is one of our responsibilities.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on November 06, 2008, 11:33:49 AM
I'm a little shocked to actually hear people be ok with taking away rights from other human beings.  I thought we were supposed to love our neighbors.  I thought we weren't supposed to judge people.  Isn't that supposed to be God's job when you die?  I'm not Christian but that's what I've always gotten from it.  Further, if you're going to follow the bible that closely, are women property? 

This is just really sad.  Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?  I wonder how Thomas Jefferson feels about California right now?  Never mind that if he were living today, he'd be called an "elitist."

Also, untherapy, I don't know where you go to school but my school has been very much into the election.  The entire paper yesterday was all about the results and the youth vote.  In fact, it's taken over the paper, for the most part since school started.  And there have been booths around school every day first encouraging people to register and then to vote.  And I go to a school that has a reputation for being conservative.

ETA: I also wanted to add about the news: I think Rachel Maddow and Nate Silver have helped attract younger people by being smart, funny, and, ultimately, accurate.  Plus, while Maddow makes it no secret who she supports, Silver's site is nonpartisan.  I think the youth, and most people, appreciate having something with no bias. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 11:40:52 AM

That said, too late kev, I truly hope you don't actually believe that because we are "believers" we are narrow minded and cliched. You don't have to believe in a higher power, that's your choice, but don't let that sadden you or judge those who do (contrary to what some think, Christians aren't crazy bible wielding psychopaths. We are just as confused about the way of the world as those who don't believe in God, and we fight just as hard for the rights of people. Somethings, however, because of the bible and our faith we just can't go along with. I don't care what anyone else says, it's a constant battle to know what to believe and what not to, but deep down I can't not believe in God.) We believe what we believe, and you don't. It's not a matter of us having pride over not wanting everyone to have basic human rights. As I've stated, as well as untherapy, we think homosexuals should have all the legal rights in regards to legal issues, but when it comes to marriage, we feel that is a sacred unity between a man and a wife. There are other ways they can show their love and unity, just not under God's doing. You may not believe in God, but you got married, something that, we believe, was created for God and under His name. Again, you don't have to believe this, I am just letting you know that's what it is as viewed by a Christian.

I don't at all believe that all believers, Christians, church-goers, what-have-you are narrow minded and cliched, Angie Maeuntherapy, however, had specifically expressed her pride in the fact that prop 8 had passed and she had a part in it.  That's what saddens me. 

I'm thrilled and proud to live in a country where people can practice their religion, or practice no religion at all.  When people try to apply their beliefs to the law is where it bothers me.  And while I did get married, it was by a Justice of the Peace, and not in a church.  I don't mind at all if you view my marriage as created by God, but Mr. Kev and I are still going to think that we created it with a little help from the J.P. ;) 

In general, I'm a "live and let live" type.  As long as people aren't being "dangerous or destructive" (the teachers and parents among us will probably recognize that phrase), I want them to be able to pursue their happiness.  untherapy is proud that some lesbian couple twice as old as she is with a lot of living and experience behind them can't even get married by a J.P.  She's proud that she had a part of that, whereas I'm terribly saddened that a couple like that can't marry.

cdgeiger, I'm so glad to hear that about your school!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 11:42:52 AM
However, I voted against Proposition 8. And I don’t think twice for it. Why? Because it’s a fundamental civil rights issue. It should not be a religious issue at all. Even if the Proposition had passed religious organization did not have to marry the gay couples.

Exactly! This is how I feel. I don't think churches should ever be forced to marry homosexuals -- each faith has its own view on marriage and I respect that (although I may personally disagree). But as a nation that is founded on the separation of church and state, as a nation whose constitution clearly states that all men (women) are created equal, why don't we yet acknowledge marriage is a basic civil right? In our country, marriage is a legal matter. It requires a license and can be performed by a judge. If someone wants to look at it as a religious thing, too, then great. But first it is a secular contract and I believe that all our citizens are entitled to the same legal right. It's that simple. Religion should not come into play.

Oh, and don't get me started on the Arkansas adoption thing. It makes my brain hurt.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 11:44:23 AM
wendolf, I'd applaud you, but I already did that after your last post. bighugsicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 11:48:36 AM
I know plenty of practicing Catholics that voted against Proposition 8. It doesn’t make me less of a Catholic or them. I will not vote something just because the church tells me to. They have done so many things that I have disagreed with, but it has not deterred or swayed my fundamental belief in God.

So much for me staying out of this - I just wanted to say I heartily agree with you Alamos. I recently read an article (I think by Caroline Kennedy - one of the Kennedys, anyway) talking about her Catholicism and her liberalism, and how she manages to make one sit with the other. The premise of the article was somewhat surprising to me, because my Catholic upbringing has never conflicted me with what I think politically, because I don't just follow what the church tells me to, and it's never something I've really thought all that much about.

Now, I wouldn't call myself devout or anything, because I don't know for sure what I believe in, I question it all the time and try to figure it out because I don't believe there are any hard and fast answers, and I don't believe there should be - I think we should be always questioning.

I do believe in something, though, some God or whatever way you want to put it, but mostly I believe that there is something bigger than all of us, something *more* at work in the world, for lack of a better turn of phrase, and that all that matters at the end of the day, and the end of our lives, is that we do our best. That we try to live good lives, that we listen to our conscience and try to always do the right thing. Love your neighbour as yourself. That's the most important thing to me, not individual doctrines or theologies. And for that reason, I rarely pay any attention to what the church tells me I should think on particular issues - I listen to my conscience and try to make the decision I believe to be right. On some issues, I have the same opinion as the church, though often for different reasons, and on other issues I disagree completely. Doesn't affect my belief in God though. And like wendolf said earlier, I believe in a God who is just and loving and will understand my reasoning, even if he disagrees.

Now, I really don't want to make this sound like I'm having a go at anyone for their opinions or beliefs, I just wanted to state how I see things, how I reach my own decisions about things. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs and no one has the right to make anyone feel otherwise. But I think the point that "Christian" doesn't just reflect one viewpoint, one group of people, one way of thinking is a very important one to make.

It's an interesting question to me, because there's been a lot of debate lately about extending the British abortion laws to Northern Ireland, and the church has weighed in on it in a way I find a little militant (or at least my particular parish priest, anyway, and he tends to be a bit militant about a lot of political issues, which I find most off-putting). It's something which I find quite difficult to figure out in my own head, but what the church says doesn't play into my thoughts and decision-making process - that's between me and my conscience, and nothing else.

Of course, I think my conscience, my sense of right and wrong is informed a great deal by my religion and my upbringing, but at the end of the day, doctrine doesn't play into it for me.

Now, I think I had another point to make, but it took me so long to say all that that I've forgotten it  :-\ so I'll shut up for now. I do just want to say again though, that I'm really not trying to tell anyone else that they're wrong for thinking the way they think, or for the way that their religion informs things like their political decisions, I just wanted to add my two cents to the discussion that how many people who consider themselves religious or Christian or whatever can see things very differently from each other, that it's not all black or white.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 06, 2008, 11:51:46 AM
Word to many of the posts here.

I just wanted to add that in terms of religion and marriage . . . While I respect a religious institution's view on marriage and say they should have the right to only marry those that align with their beliefs, marriage isn't even a religious tradition! That kind of bothers me. Marriage started with little to no religious significance. It was about a contract between families. The church just kind of got in on the fun later, thousands of years after marriage contracts had been going on.

Marriage is a social and secular contract first. The church just saw another opportunity to exert its power and control. (I really dislike the tradition argument that is sometimes used by some religious people to deny others rights because, dude, your traditions aren't even your traditions.)

Okay, rant . . . stopped.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 11:57:44 AM
Word to many of the posts here.

I just wanted to add that in terms of religion and marriage . . . While I respect a religious institution's view on marriage and say they should have the right to only marry those that align with their beliefs, marriage isn't even a religious tradition! That kind of bothers me. Marriage started with little to no religious significance. It was about a contract between families. The church just kind of got in on the fun later, thousands of years after marriage contracts had been going on.

Marriage is a social and secular contract first. The church just saw another opportunity to exert its power and control. (I really dislike the tradition argument that is sometimes used by some religious people to deny others rights because, dude, your traditions aren't even your traditions.)

Okay, rant . . . stopped.

Veeery good point, MojoPin - did anyone see that bit on The Daily Show the other night about the 'traditions' of marriage, and prima noctis (which of course reminded me of TO) and everything? It made pretty much the same point, that marriage hasn't always been this perfect spiritual union, that attitudes have shifted before from accepting something which we now view as ludicrous, so why do we hold the 'tradition' now in such immovable regard?

Anyway, as far as Prop 8 goes, I totally agree with what other people have said that just because marriage is a religious thing for some people, doesn't mean it is for everyone. Arguing otherwise is, to me, in total contradiction of the separation between church and state.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 12:05:43 PM
Well said, summerteeth. At one point in my life I was much more chained to what I was "supposed" to believe as a Christian. I was taught, basically, that there was only one "right" way to interpret things, perhaps only one way to really know God (i.e., the Christian way). But my whole life, certain things didn't sit well with my conscience. I had such trouble believing that my Jewish friends were somehow further from God than I was, or that God cared more about my "belief" (the thoughts in my head) than He did about my actions, or that getting to "heaven" was the ultimate goal. Now I see things differently. I no longer endure those mental gymnastics, trying to justify what I feel to be right with what I was taught in church (if they conflicted). Now I believe that there are many paths to "the More," and Christianity is just one of them. It's the one I know, the one I'm comfortable with, the one of my culture. But do I think it's the ONLY way? Nope.

So to bring this on topic: One thing I really liked about Colin Powell's endorsement of Barack Obama was when he talked about the rumor of Obama being a Muslim. Powell basically said (and I'm totally paraphrasing), "He's not a Muslim, but so what if he were? Are we saying that our country could never have a Muslim president?" This really struck me because in a country where religion is private and supposedly separate from government, could we ever see a day when a non-Christian (and my non-Christian, I mean Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc. -- not just non-practicing Christians) would be in the White House? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: twentythree on November 06, 2008, 12:09:25 PM

Anyway, as far as Prop 8 goes, I totally agree with what other people have said that just because marriage is a religious thing for some people, doesn't mean it is for everyone. Arguing otherwise is, to me, in total contradiction of the separation between church and state.

Exactly. And okay, ridiculous question but...can something be done about the fact that the LDS spent so much money on the Vote Yes on 8 thing when A)They had nothing to do with California and b)It was obviously a church that funding the campaign? I don't know, I just feel like something should be done about that, because it's insane that they were even allowed to have a say in anything.

By the way, I live in Florida, where are gay marriage ban was also passed. And it sucks, because not only does it affect gay people, but it also affects straight people in domestic partnerships. Honestly, why should anyone be allowed to say who you marry? It just...boggles my mind.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 06, 2008, 12:10:22 PM
This morning, on the radio, it said it was speculated that Obama would make McCain his Secretary of State. Has anyone else heard anything about this? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on November 06, 2008, 12:12:04 PM
That reminds me, Condi Rice and Colin Powell's reactions to the Obama win made me misty eyed.  Granted, I'm going on 36 hours of bursting out in tears at random moments but those two clips really got to me.  

I've also loved the reaction around the world.  It reminds me that America, for better or for worse, is a world leader.  Is THE world leader and it's just as much a win for them as it is for us.  It feels like the world is united, not just the U.S., and it gives me more hope for world peace than anything else I've seen in my thus short time on this earth.  
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 12:16:17 PM
I just don't think McCain would work as Sec of State. Obama will need someone there more in line with his agenda. Can you imagine if he asks McCain to meet with a dictator without pre-conditions?

I think he'd make a good head of the Department of Veterans Affairs.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 12:21:47 PM
Thanks, wendolf. I went to a Catholic school - run by nuns, all-girls, the whole bit. And in a funny way I think it was a good thing for me precisely because it made me question things. I've never exactly been a rebellious youth or anything, but the way in which this sort of stuff was sometimes imposed upon us made us question it - they (some of them, to be fair, mostly the head mistress - who was a nun - at assemblies and our religious education teachers) tried to ram certain things down our throats in such a way that I just sort of thought 'yeah, right.' I could never believe that the God I had been told was loving and just and forgiving could be so strict about certain things. I was taught that a sin is when you do something wrong and you *know* it to be wrong. So if you truly act with your conscience, no one can tell you something is a sin. So when the church try to tell me what I should think on certain issues where I fundamentally disagree with them, it's not an issue for me because if I really believe I'm doing the right thing, then I'm fine. Now a lot of people might disagree with that, and they can if they want, but that's how I look at things.

At the end of the day, organised religion of any kind sort of gets my goat by the mere fact of its existence (and I do say this as someone who goes to Mass every week). Because each religion believes something a bit different, and I don't for a second think that someone is going to be turned away from heaven, or whatever you want to call it, on the basis of their religion. You do good things, you listen to your conscience and you'll be rewarded. You don't, you won't - that's how I see it. Like you said, wendolf - many paths to get there.

And since I've not mentioned The West Wing so far today, I may as well do it now - nothing has ever more eloquently encapsulated my views on this whole subject more than this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI

Also, word to the rest of your post about Obama being/not being a Muslim, wendolf - I had this conversation with a guy I work with where he said he understood why some Americans might not feel comfortable with a Muslim President, and I just did not understand that at all. It's as offensive and silly to me as the notions that JKF might not have been suitable for the White House because he was a Catholic.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 06, 2008, 12:25:57 PM
So to bring this on topic: One thing I really liked about Colin Powell's endorsement of Barack Obama was when he talked about the rumor of Obama being a Muslim. Powell basically said (and I'm totally paraphrasing), "He's not a Muslim, but so what if he were? Are we saying that our country could never have a Muslim president?" This really struck me because in a country where religion is private and supposedly separate from government, could we ever see a day when a non-Christian (and my non-Christian, I mean Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc. -- not just non-practicing Christians) would be in the White House? Thoughts?

Well, Joe Lierberman should have been the first Jewish VP back in 2000, before the race was stolen. But what I find interesting is how John Kerry's Catholicism was brought up and how it was a big deal (or maybe it's totally bigger in my head than it actually was in 2004). But also to think of how unlikely it was back in 1960 that America would elect a Catholic . . .

Do I think there will be a non-Christian in the White House? One day, yes. A Jew, to me, is the most likely because Americans have an incredibly long way to go with Islam (I, also, was so glad Powell said what he said about it not being a bad thing to be a Muslim). But Americans also seem to have a "right" Christianity and a "wrong" Christianity, so who knows? I'd be more curious to know if an atheist or agnostic could ever get into office. I'm not sure if John McCain is completely either, but I know he's not particularly religious, but pandered to the religious anyway.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sara2009 on November 06, 2008, 12:44:40 PM
I know I'm late, but I really wanted to add to the Gay Marriage discussion:

I'm sorry if I offend some people with what I say. I'm a fervent Christian. I am also, however, quite liberal when it comes to the hot button issues. I truly believe that as a country and also as human beings, we have absolutely no right to tell other people how to live their lives as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. If homosexuals want to get married, I think we should let them. Especially since it's a legal union. Yes the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, but it also says that slaves should obey their masters and that women should remain quiet in church. Should we have made those part of the constitution as well? I think not.  As far as I can remember(and as others have stated here), Jesus never said one word about homosexuality. Heck, some of his best friends were those who were condemned in society. As wendolf stated so eloquently, Jesus preached about love above all else.  America is a country of diversity. Because of that, not everyone has the same beliefs. If we deny homosexuals the right to marry based on religious grounds, I think that's just as bad as if we discriminated based on race.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 12:56:49 PM
Thanks, Sara. Well said. The Bible (not Jesus himself) does indeed mention homosexuality (I think only three times? And only once in the New Testament? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) But if you look up how many times "justice" or "love" or other similar words are mentioned ... get ready for the deluge.

Again, I know this is the Politics thread, but I'm going to post one Bible verse that guides me in my political views:

Micah 6.8:
He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
   and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
   and to walk humbly
with your God?

BTW, do we have a religion thread here? Or is that an even more volatile subject than politics?  :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 12:57:34 PM
Good grief:

 Palin didn't know Africa was a continent rather than a country (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/nov/06/uselections2008-sarahpalin)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on November 06, 2008, 01:16:11 PM
Obama apparent winner of NC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27575817/)

(http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_jumpclap.gif)

I'm glad my new state isn't as conservative as I had feared.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 06, 2008, 01:18:59 PM
Before this thread goes nuclear:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: denimvest on November 06, 2008, 01:23:25 PM
Obama apparent winner of NC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27575817/)

(http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_jumpclap.gif)

I'm glad my new state isn't as conservative as I had feared.


That's awesome, I'm really proud of you guys!  :)  We in TN are so backwards that our state govt got even more red this time around.  Go figure  >:(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 01:31:31 PM
North Carolina went really blue this year. Not only did it go for Obama, but Democrats won in the Senate (Jesse Helms old seat in fact!) and the Governor's race. Also, Larry Kissell won in the NC-8, which was a pickup for the Dems and makes NC's congressional delegation 8-5 in favor of the Dems.

Times are a changin.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: xoxoxo on November 06, 2008, 01:35:32 PM
*Quick (Mod) Note from a Poly Sci Major*

I spent 4 years debating politics, rights - or lack thereof, various social/economic issues and had to cover both the left and right wing views.  Trust me.  I get it and I'm a great proponent of open dialogue on even the most controversial of subjects.

The temperature here is getting a little high so I thought I'd post a reminder.  Agree with each other...or...don't but please do so without resorting to passing judgement on those who may have different views than you.   Engaging in personal attacks is not cool and it's not how we discuss things here.  Let me say that again in a different way.  If you don't agree with someone there is no need to call names, point fingers and most importantly GENERALIZE that everyone who thinks a certain way is the same.  I'd ask those of you participating in the Prop 8 discussion to keep that in mind.  The way some of the posts here read to me....some of you might want to edit accordingly.  As a matter of fact - I think you definitely should.

That is all.

Ahhh summerteeth.  The West Wing. This here  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V82I7vgzfgE&feature=related) is my favorite scene involving politics and religion.

They had me at the pilot.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 01:59:09 PM
Too true, xoxoxo, too true. I love when he wipes the smugness off that Mary Marsh's face. I should probably take the Wingnut-ism to the TV threads - I could talk about it forever, I'm currently in the middle of a re-re-watch of the series!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: untherapy on November 06, 2008, 02:16:38 PM
Thanks, Sara. Well said. The Bible (not Jesus himself) does indeed mention homosexuality (I think only three times? And only once in the New Testament? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) But if you look up how many times "justice" or "love" or other similar words are mentioned ... get ready for the deluge.

Again, I know this is the Politics thread, but I'm going to post one Bible verse that guides me in my political views:

Micah 6.8:
He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
   and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
   and to walk humbly
with your God?

BTW, do we have a religion thread here? Or is that an even more volatile subject than politics?  :-\

Wendolf, thanks for that verse - what a great guideline :)

Sorry, all, to have prodded the fire, but thank you for listening to my opinion! I'm all about rights, and I honestly believe we should do whatever is needed to get ALL types of domestic partnership the same legal clout. However much marriage has been alienated from religion in our country, I still hold a God-centered view of it, so I will vote to uphold my ideals when I can.

To apply what several of you have been saying: I voted my conscience, and I do believe I did the right thing.

PS - SOOOOOoooo glad to hear that my campus is odd man out! Yes the paper really did post those things, no it wasn't in a letter to the editor, and NO i haven't picked it up since!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 02:23:40 PM
You're welcome untherapy, and please don't apologize! We all have the right to our personal view and I respect that you feel strongly enough about yours to bravely state it. You should definitely follow what you believe, even if it is unpopular in certain circles. Although we may disagree in this debate about gay marriage, I respect that you have a strong faith that guides you in your decisions. 

grouphugicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 02:23:45 PM

The concise answer to your question is that I am a Christian. The informative answer is that, to me, marriage is more that legal state, document, or even a label. Marriage is a sacred bond created by God to exist between a man and a woman in a way that mirrors His relationship with His people on earth. (If references are of interest to anyone I'd be more than happy to provide!) Also, the Bible clearly states that homosexual actions are sinful, and so I cannot endorse legal protection and provision for those actions. There are lots of other actions that fall under this category, but mostly they are not on the ballot...

Thank you for your answer. I know it takes guts to state an unpopular opinion. I respect your right to it, and I respectfully offer a response for your consideration.

There is a difference between a sin and a crime.
A sin is a religious offense; a crime is a civil one. One is an offense against God, the other against your neighbor. The definition of a sin will differ from religion to religion, but it is not a civil affair and should not be. For example, it is a sin in Judaism to insult one's parents. It is not a crime to do so, nor is it likely to be. Similarly, it is a sin for Jews to eat pork*; it is not a civil crime to do so. As a Jew, it is incumbent upon me not to insult my parents and not to eat pork. That does not mean I go out and stone my neighbor for insulting HIS parents; not even the most fundamentalist of Jews will burn down a butcher shop that sells pork. My sins are MY AFFAIR, and no one else's. We like to say that this nation was founded on Biblical principles, but it wasn't; it was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, the primary foundation of which is the separation of religious ideals from political ideals.

We do not permit religious authorities to punish civil crime in this country. Nor do we allow religion to dictate what our laws should be, just as our laws may not dictate what religious principles should be. There is no conflict between a church's definition of sin, and a civil government's legislation against crime or the protection of civil rights; they may operate side by side with no conflict. You, as a Christian, have a certain definition of marriage. Muslims, Buddhists and pagans may have a completely different definition. Are you willing to impose your definition on them? Would you like their definition to be imposed on you? Would you care for the State of California to tell your church that only certain persons may be baptised? Would you feel comfortable telling my congregation who may or may not undergo a bar mitzvah ceremony?  Christians are free to define marriage however they want. They are free to refuse to recognize any marriage they choose (ask any Catholic who has remarried after divorce, without the consent of the Church, how a marriage may be civil but not religious). Christians are free to preach against homosexuality all they want. But unless and until you can show a CIVIL reason why two consenting adults of sound mind may not engage in an activity which harms no one, threatens no one, and does not threaten the state, you have overstepped your bounds when you try to translate religious law into the realm of civil law. If you do, what you wind up with is Sharia.

As a Christian, you are bound to follow your conscience. But you are NOT your brother's keeper, nor are you obliged to force your brothers and sisters to do what you fervently believe is right. If you are a Christian, you must believe in free will, and that will necessarily entail allowing people to sin because they choose to do so. You may and should pray for their salvation, you may be bound to preach to them against sin and urge them to redemption, but you may not force it on them. Temperance Christians once forced this country into Prohibition, and learned just how untenable it was to try to force rectitude on the multitudes. Bible-believing Christians once believed (and often still do believe) that it was a sin and against the Bible to allow people of different races to marry. They are free to continue to believe that. But they are not free to enforce it.



*I know many Reform Jews choose to eat pork, etc. I'm only stating the Law, not advocating strict adherence to halakhah.

ETA: The "you" I refer to above in the last paragraph is a generalized "you", not untherapy personally.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 02:27:17 PM
Wow. Bravo, NEJ. That was amazing. Schrute buck to you for your insight on this topic.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 06, 2008, 02:54:33 PM
Obama apparent winner of NC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27575817/)

(http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_jumpclap.gif)

I'm glad my new state isn't as conservative as I had feared.

summerteeth!  Where are you?   bighugsicon This is AWESOME news!  WTG, NC!   partyhaticon grouphugicon cheersicon

Icons aside, I am so proud of NC right now.  The state never goes republican, and polls conducted before the election suggested that a significant percentage of the voters would be basing their vote off of race.  I remember NBC talking about this onTuesday night, but I can't recall the numbers.  Nonetheless, NC did me proud! 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 03:00:39 PM
I'm here, I'm here!!!  wavingicon  Yay for my adopted state!! High five!

Hey, you know I should have thought of this sooner - I should have adopted states and counties and specific House and Senate races to feel more included. I'll run a book on it next time ;)

I was waiting to see when CNN was gonna call it, seems like they're the only ones who haven't yet.

Does anyone know when there'll be anything definitive on the House/Senate seats undecided yet? I can't believe there's only a few hundred votes between Coleman and Franken in MN, that's awesome! Everytime I hear him speak or read one of his books, I've always thought Al Franken should run for something. He always seems so very measured and knowledgeable and fair, even when he's cracking jokes about something.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 06, 2008, 03:05:40 PM
Ah, religion and politics. Two quick things: First, my favorite amendment is the First Amendment. The government can't tell my Catholic church what to do and my church shouldn't tell the government what to do. And second, this is not a country where majority rules. It's majority rule with minority rights. Imagine if Alabama was given the choice in 1964 to outlaw Jim Crow laws. If the people voted to keep Jim Crow laws in place, which they probably would have, would that have been right?

Prop 8 shouldn't have been on the ballot in the first place. That being said, the No on 8 people were pretty unorganized compared to the Yes on 8 so if we care about this issue, we need to do a better job next time. Also, the No on 8 party looked to be alot more fun on Election Night. :)

Love the West Wing mentions considering Joshn Lymon was apparently based off of new Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. Oh, and Rahm's brother Ari is the basis for Ari Gold in Entourage. Their third brother, the bioethicist and oncologist, must feel really lame now. ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: yeesh on November 06, 2008, 03:13:30 PM
Does anyone know when there'll be anything definitive on the House/Senate seats undecided yet? I can't believe there's only a few hundred votes between Coleman and Franken in MN, that's awesome! Everytime I hear him speak or read one of his books, I've always thought Al Franken should run for something. He always seems so very measured and knowledgeable and fair, even when he's cracking jokes about something.

I honestly couldn't believe it either! Sadly though, it looks like Coleman will probably win. There's going to be a recount, but I doubt it will change the outcome. I think Franken would have been an excellent senator for our state.

We are a "blue state" in the presidential election, but I was sad to see many of our local elections go for Republicans. Go figure.  :-\

Go North Carolina!!  bighugsicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 03:45:44 PM
Way back a few pages, someone asked whether we thought it was more likely that other minorities might be elected President now that an African-American has been.  I saw some "expert" being asked the same question last night (sorry, I can't remember which expert ;)), although he was specifically asked about women, I think (this is a typical "Kev's poor memory" story).  He said yes, it's much more likely that a woman, a Jew, a Latino, etc., would be elected.

Someone had mentioned some flak about Kerry being Catholic in 2004.  I hadn't heard about that, although of course it was huge when Kennedy originally broke that barrier.  On the other hand, I definitely heard things when Romney was running for President about his being a Mormon.  To me the important thing is that a politician can keep his or her own religious beliefs from affecting how s/he runs things.  I'd be unlikely to vote for someone who would try to make the laws conform to his or her religion.

On Al Franken, I was sort of hoping for another "Al Franken Decade." ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 03:53:37 PM
Someone had mentioned some flak about Kerry being Catholic in 2004.  I hadn't heard about that, although of course it was huge when Kennedy originally broke that barrier.  On the other hand, I definitely heard things when Romney was running for President about his being a Mormon.  To me the important thing is that a politician can keep his or her own religious beliefs from affecting how s/he runs things.  I'd be unlikely to vote for someone who would try to make the laws conform to his or her religion.

You know, I don't know that I was all that aware of the issues that people had with Kennedy being Catholic when he ran - I mean, I knew he was the first Catholic President and everything, but I guess somehow I'd just never paid enough attention to realise that well into the 20th century anyone outside of my backwards little country cared about/was frightened by Catholicism. I certainly wasn't aware that there was issue raised with Kerry being Catholic in 04. I'm blaming my ignorance on my not having a computer or home internet access till 05 ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 03:57:52 PM
Thanks, Sara. Well said. The Bible (not Jesus himself) does indeed mention homosexuality (I think only three times? And only once in the New Testament? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.) But if you look up how many times "justice" or "love" or other similar words are mentioned ... get ready for the deluge.

Again, I know this is the Politics thread, but I'm going to post one Bible verse that guides me in my political views:

Micah 6.8:
He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
   and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
   and to walk humbly
with your God?

BTW, do we have a religion thread here? Or is that an even more volatile subject than politics?  :-\

Wendolf, thanks for that verse - what a great guideline :)

Sorry, all, to have prodded the fire, but thank you for listening to my opinion! I'm all about rights, and I honestly believe we should do whatever is needed to get ALL types of domestic partnership the same legal clout. However much marriage has been alienated from religion in our country, I still hold a God-centered view of it, so I will vote to uphold my ideals when I can.

To apply what several of you have been saying: I voted my conscience, and I do believe I did the right thing.

PS - SOOOOOoooo glad to hear that my campus is odd man out! Yes the paper really did post those things, no it wasn't in a letter to the editor, and NO i haven't picked it up since!


untherapy, I certainly think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But in this case, it isn't exactly an even scenario. I was seeing how someone like Ellen and many others were profoundly saddened about this defeat. Yes, you disagree with them and they disagree with you about gay marriage. But the difference to me is that they are not voting to take your rights away. You voted to take their rights away.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 06, 2008, 04:01:21 PM
untherapy, I certainly think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But in this case, it isn't exactly an even scenario. I was seeing how someone like Ellen and many others were profoundly saddened about this defeat. Yes, you disagree with them and they disagree with you about gay marriage. But the difference to me is that they are not voting to take your rights away. You voted to take their rights away.

I agree, Larry.  I can't believe this is 2008 and people are still denying others basic civil rights.  It's appalling.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 06, 2008, 04:06:26 PM
untherapy, I certainly think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But in this case, it isn't exactly an even scenario. I was seeing how someone like Ellen and many others were profoundly saddened about this defeat. Yes, you disagree with them and they disagree with you about gay marriage. But the difference to me is that they are not voting to take your rights away. You voted to take their rights away.

I agree, Larry.  I can't believe this is 2008 and people are still denying others basic civil rights.  It's appalling.

And that is what makes it so sad and frustrating.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 04:07:01 PM
Hi guys! wavingicon.

On my days off, I try to stay away from the computer, but I've kept up with the comments by reading them on my palm.  But, just want to say yay!  for the election results.  Like many of you, I've just had this wonderful, hopeful feeling since Tuesday night - I know there will be bumps in the road, and mistakes made, but I'm so grateful that we had the opportunity to vote for such an inspirational candidate and one that, I think, genuinely cares about bridging so many of the divides that have plagued this country (for the past 8 years especially).  And it could not have come at a more critical moment when there is so much at stake - the economy, the wars, healthcare, environment.  I'm just really really grateful for that.

I was saddened also by the passage of Prop 8 type measures.  But, I'm also really optimistic.  I really think that in the near future - I don't know...10 years or so? - we'll get it right on this one.  I just think of how much has already changed since I was a child (I'm 32).  Growing up, I never knew of anyone who was openly gay, and was raised in a society that was pretty intolerant of gay people, much less the notion of marriage, or a civil union, for gay couples.  Things are so different today - granted that I live in a very blue part of an already blue state, but I know several gay and lesbian couples who have children and are creating families for themselves just as hetero couples do.  In my daughter's preschool class that she will be going into, one of her classmates has two moms.  And it just makes me happy to think that my daughter will just grow up and seeing and knowing that her classmate's family is no more or less normal than her own family.    

The demographics in our country are changing.  Just as for younger voters, the issue of race in this election wasn't a big deal, I believe, that the issue of gay marriage won't, by and large, be a problem for them either.  While I don't think people like my parents will ever really change their minds, I think (hope) that we'll see more of the younger, progressive voters making more of an impact.


And NEJ - that was a wonderful post, and just what I was thinking.  Thank you for putting all of that in words so articulately!

So to bring this on topic: One thing I really liked about Colin Powell's endorsement of Barack Obama was when he talked about the rumor of Obama being a Muslim. Powell basically said (and I'm totally paraphrasing), "He's not a Muslim, but so what if he were? Are we saying that our country could never have a Muslim president?" This really struck me because in a country where religion is private and supposedly separate from government, could we ever see a day when a non-Christian (and my non-Christian, I mean Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, etc. -- not just non-practicing Christians) would be in the White House? Thoughts?

Wendolf, I loved that Colin Powell said what he said and that he said it in such a moving way.  I teared up when I heard him speak about the Muslim soldier’s tombstone.    As someone who grew up in a muslim household (I don’t practice or believe in Islam or any other organized religion myself, however), it does make me sad that some conservatives would emphasize Obama’s middle name - “Hussain” - as if to highlight his otherness.  But, I think as a country we’re moving in the right direction, overall.  I just think it will take some time.  I am happy that my daughter will know that her funny-sounding, ethnic name won’t be bar, in and of itself, to her becoming the president should she want that for herself.  

But, beyond the Muslim-thing, I really hope that one day we’ll get to a point where a candidate doesn’t have to portray himself as religious at all, and for a major candidate who is an atheist, agnostic (or someone like me - believes in something, but doesn’t want to attach himself/herself to any organized religion or creed),  to be electable.  I hate that in North Carolina, Elizabeth Dole ran those “godless” ads against her opponent and I hate that her opponent had to explicitly go on about being a christian to defend herself.  You know, atheists and the like are as capable,  moral and ethical (maybe more so, in some ways) than Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.  When are we going to accept that?

And as far as us electing our first African-American president, I’m so glad that we’ve reached this point finally.  However, I’d like to point out that there is still a long way to go in terms of racial equality in this country.  I read an article some time ago that addressed the issue of how we would react if Obama and McCain could switch their personal histories.  The author said something like, imagine if the black candidate was an indifferent church-goer, left his disabled first wife, graduated near the bottom of his university class, etc. - wouldn’t work would it?  So, although I’m so happy that Obama was elected, I do think it’s important to bear in mind that this is a man with a near super-human record - he’s brilliant, has a seemingly perfect family, an even temperment, is extremely disciplined, etc.    Obama’s election is a step in the right direction, but we still have a ways to go.

That’s all I’ve got right now.  Finally, I've really enjoyed over the past months reading all the comments posted in this thread and taking part in this discussion as well.  So, thanks to all of you for posting your opinions and thoughts - I’ve learned a lot from all of you!

And last, just to add some funny to the mix, leave it to the Onion to offer this irreverent and sobering view of the election results:

Nation Finally S**** Enough to Make Social Progress (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nation_finally_shitty_enough_to)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 04:31:36 PM
Democrat Merkley takes Oregon Senate seat (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/06/senate.election/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 04:40:13 PM
On my days off, I try to stay away from the computer, but I've kept up with the comments by reading them on my palm.  

Science Fiction fan that I am, I imagined lines of words scrolling up your hand as you read them...  When you look away, the words pause...  Then my "lives in this world" brain kicked in and said "Palm Pilot!" ;D

I agree, zeebee, regarding gay marriage.  I don't think it's going to go away, no matter how many states pass laws like this.  Like women being able to vote and different races being able to marry, it's going to happen.  "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." ;)

And another Thomas Paine quote which seems appropriate:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 06, 2008, 04:52:36 PM
The First Amendment of the US Constitution states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I am not bothered by people's religious beliefs, or lack of them. What bothers me is intolerance, and hypocrisy of people who do things in the name of religion. 

Religious groups that have authored, and supported the Anti-Gay, Anti-family amendment (because, let's just call it what it is) in CA are hypocrites.   The bible makes a brief reference to gays, but the bible also talks about human sacrifice, and slavery and yet, I don't see anyone putting those propositions forward, because they are ridiculous. 

Jesus spent more time talking about helping the poor and the suffering among us, then he ever did on gays.    Prop. 8 cost upwards of $73 million dollars -- imagine the good that money could have done for people who really need it.   

In Arkansas they voted for a ban on unmarried couples adopting or fostering children that was put forward by en evangelical christian group who portrayed it as a battle against a so-called "gay agenda."      Okay, so where are the good christian people to adopt and foster these children?   Because there are still thousands of children waiting for a home.     The idea that some people would prefer that children languish in group homes, or worse, when they could be placed in loving, safe, protective families is wrong. 

I get tired of people cherry picking what they want out of the bible to justify their bigoted opinions against people who are not like them.    Judge not, lest ye be judged, right?   Yeah, right.   ::)

Human rights should NEVER be put to a vote.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 04:54:58 PM
Someone had mentioned some flak about Kerry being Catholic in 2004.  I hadn't heard about that, although of course it was huge when Kennedy originally broke that barrier.  On the other hand, I definitely heard things when Romney was running for President about his being a Mormon.  To me the important thing is that a politician can keep his or her own religious beliefs from affecting how s/he runs things.  I'd be unlikely to vote for someone who would try to make the laws conform to his or her religion.

I must disagree, respectfully. Tell me, would you have voted for Martin Luther King for office? I would have. How about Ghandi? Their religion deeply informed everything they did. I would prefer to know where my politicians are coming from, what values they hold, and on what basis, than to have to guess at them. Why would any politician want to hide his or her core ethical values from me, the voter?

When it comes to religion and politics, I like to look at the example of Dr. King. He did not sneer at his opponents, or bash them, or call them names. He certainly never said they should not be allowed to vote. Rather, he used his Christian religion to speak to Christians on the other side of the political fence. He spoke to white Southerners in the common language they understood--the words of Jesus which taught that all men were brothers, the words of Peter that in Christ there was no slave nor free. Even the most fundamentalist of Bible-thumpers could not rebut their own Master. Even fundamentalists with racist upbringings like my own grandparents found that they could not reject his arguments, which appealed to the best in people. To reject King's arguments was (subconsciously, anyway) to reject what people hoped was the best in them. Yet King made these arguments in such a way that Jews, atheists and other non-Christians were perfectly comfortable working with him, indeed, dying for his cause. Likewise Jack Kennedy, a devout Catholic, had no trouble working with Jews and Protestants. Mohandas Ghandi was surrounded all his life by followers who did not share his Hindu faith, but acted out of their own religious impulses, in complete harmony.

I would never vote for someone who said, "Vote for me because I am a Christian/Jew/pagan/follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster." I would vote for someone who said, "Vote for me because my Christian/Jewish/FSMian values inspire me to work for such and such political cause." A person whose actions are grounded in strong ethical values (religious or not) would be, IMO, more likely to hang on and keep fighting for them even in the face of tall odds. That person would get my vote.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 06, 2008, 04:58:31 PM
The First Amendment of the US Constitution states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I am not bothered by people's religious beliefs, or lack of them. What bothers me is intolerance, and hypocrisy of people who do things in the name of religion. 

Religious groups that have authored, and supported the Anti-Gay, Anti-family amendment (because, let's just call it what it is) in CA are hypocrites.   The bible makes a brief reference to gays, but the bible also talks about human sacrifice, and slavery and yet, I don't see anyone putting those propositions forward, because they are ridiculous. 

Jesus spent more time talking about helping the poor and the suffering among us, then he ever did on gays.    Prop. 8 cost upwards of $73 million dollars -- imagine the good that money could have done for people who really need it.  

In Arkansas they voted for a ban on unmarried couples adopting or fostering children that was put forward by en evangelical christian group who portrayed it as a battle against a so-called "gay agenda."      Okay, so where are the good christian people to adopt and foster these children?   Because there are still thousands of children waiting for a home.     The idea that some people would prefer that children languish in group homes, or worse, when they could be placed in loving, safe, protective families is wrong. 

I get tired of people cherry picking what they want out of the bible to justify their bigoted opinions against people who are not like them.    Judge not, lest ye be judged, right?   Yeah, right.   ::)

Human rights should NEVER be put to a vote.

Bravo, susanita.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 06, 2008, 05:02:45 PM
Okay, guys, as xoxoxo said earlier, we really don't want to start making big pronouncements about other groups and who is terrible, bigoted, horrible human beings,...  As we said when we first opened this thread, if it gets too heated in here, we will quickly close it.  It's not a politics board.  I'm fine with people explaining why they agree/disagree on certain topics because it's very interesting to read and discuss.  However, my responsibility as a moderator is in making all posters who follow our rules to feel welcome here, no matter how much I may personally agree or disagree with them.  
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 05:03:56 PM
The Democrats now have a 57-40 edge with three races remaining. Here's how they are shaping up...

AK - Stevens is up 3,300 votes, but there are 60,000 votes outstanding, and Begich think they come from areas that favor him, so this isn't over yet. Even if Stevens wins, he won't likely be allowed to take his seat and there will be a special election. (The Governor doesn't have the right to appoint the replacement, in reaction the Murkowski fiasco.)

GA - Chambliss is already below 50%, so there will be a runoff. I really don't like how our SOS tallied the results. She held all of the early votes (which everyone knew favored Dems) until the end, making it look like a blow out in both the Pres and Senate race. In reality, things were much closer. The way she did it led several networks to call the Senate race prematurely. I will be working to unseat her in 2010.

MN - This one will be tough. Franken is a few hundred behind, and there are no outstanding ballots left. So it comes down to a recount. The good news is that the MN SOS is a Democrat, so at least there won't be any Katherine Harris shenanigans.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 05:06:14 PM
On my days off, I try to stay away from the computer, but I've kept up with the comments by reading them on my palm. 

Science Fiction fan that I am, I imagined lines of words scrolling up your hand as you read them...  When you look away, the words pause...  Then my "lives in this world" brain kicked in and said "Palm Pilot!" ;D

I agree, zeebee, regarding gay marriage.  I don't think it's going to go away, no matter how many states pass laws like this.  Like women being able to vote and different races being able to marry, it's going to happen.  "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." ;)

And another Thomas Paine quote which seems appropriate:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

TLK, your post made me laugh.  That would be something if it was my palm, and not my palm pilot! laughingicon

And I love that Thomas Paine quote - exactly how I feel.  And totally off-topic, but I had a long conversation with a friend a while back, trying to come up with a label for someone like me.  I don't think I'd say I'm an atheist or agnostic. My friend thinks atheist applies since I don't believe in an idea of a separate entity that's god,  but when I think of atheist, I think of someone who doesn't believe in anything.  He also suggested "spiritualist" but that sounds a little new-agey. So, I don't know....I guess I just have to long-winded explanations of what I believe when asked?  Anyone else have this issue?

Actually, nevermind. Now that I've read NEJ's post (which I totally agree with, btw), I'm going with "follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster"  ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 06, 2008, 05:06:58 PM
The Democrats now have a 57-40 edge with three races remaining. Here's how they are shaping up...

Thanks for the run down, larry. So, in that 57, are you then also counting Lieberman and . . . I want to say Barry Sanders? (The democratic socialist? Is that the right name?)

Because I'll be very interested to see what the dems do with Lieberman.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 05:13:08 PM
Yeah, that does include Lieberman and Bernie Sanders. I've heard rumors that they will take Lieberman's Chairmanship away from him and make him chair of a smaller subcommittee instead. I have no idea how he will react to that, but I still don't see him defecting to the GOP. While he is very hawkish, Lieberman has much more in common with Dems on economic issues and I doubt he will find a home in a GOP that will likely tilt even further to the right int he future.

Another interesting tidbit. It now looks like Obama might win one of Nebraska's electoral votes. Nebraska, like Maine splits up its electoral votes. You get two for winning the whole state and then one for each congressional district. NE-2 includes Omaha (the conservatives call it Obamaha, heh) and Obama is only a few hundred behind now with thousands of votes remaining in Dem areas.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 05:17:38 PM
The Democrats now have a 57-40 edge with three races remaining. Here's how they are shaping up...

Thanks for the run down, larry. So, in that 57, are you then also counting Lieberman and . . . I want to say Barry Sanders? (The democratic socialist? Is that the right name?)

Because I'll be very interested to see what the dems do with Lieberman.

Lieberman may have day of reckoning with Democrats (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/06/liberman.democrats/)

Someone was talking on CNN on election night (can't remember who, it was like 6.30am or something my time at this point!) that although there's been so much made of the possibility of a super-majority and the filibuster-proof 60 seats, that it's not as cut and dried (is that the expression? I feel like that's not the expression) as that anyway. That on a lot of the hot-button issues, the senators vote on the issue, not just with the party - Republicans will sometimes side with Democrats, and vice versa, and that some Democrat senators won their seats on the basis of being a bit more conservative - in other words, having the seats is different from having the votes. Which is my way of saying who the hell knows? ;)

Yeah, that does include Lieberman and Bernie Sanders. I've heard rumors that they will take Lieberman's Chairmanship away from him and make him chair of a smaller subcommittee instead. I have no idea how he will react to that, but I still don't see him defecting to the GOP. While he is very hawkish, Lieberman has much more in common with Dems on economic issues and I doubt he will find a home in a GOP that will likely tilt even further to the right int he future.

This is complete speculation and wandering on my part, I don't really know anything about it and I'm curious for all of your opinions - what do you think will be the future of the GOP now? There has, of course, been a lot of speculation about Palin's future within the party, and I'm just wondering how you think it's gonna go - will they go more to the right (I agree with larry that they probably will), and what impact do you think that will have on the country and on the new administration's ability to get things done, and to promote unity and bipartisanship?

It does unnerve me a little to think that she may lead the party in any particular direction. She seems to have displayed an alarming ignorance and lack of understanding and knowledge, and almost a pride in that ignorance.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 05:22:04 PM
Yeah, but with the filibuster I think it is more likely to be party based.

For example, a conservative Dem may be willing to vote against a bill that most of the Dems support, but it's less likely that he would vote with the Republicans to filibuster and prevent a vote on it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 05:23:42 PM
One last political/religious post and I'll stop. I promise. (I told y'all I could talk about this stuff for hours  ::).)

NEJ, I agree that to many of us, our religion (or perhaps our religious upbringing, even if we are no longer religious) affects who we are, how we make decisions, etc. For the good and the bad. One of the reasons I am so adamant about gay rights (and civil rights) is probably because I take the example of Jesus very seriously. I look at what he did and what he said, and it makes me want to fight for the "widows and orphans," the have nots, the "lepers" and "prostitutes". (And I think all these words in quotes are not meant to be taken literally -- they are metaphors for all of the the downtrodden underdogs in the world.)

If I'm going to be perfectly honest in this thread ... here goes. Some of you who've been reading my posts might be surprised to find out that, up until THIS election (besides the year I voted for Ross Perot -- don't throw garbage), I always voted Republican. That includes voting for Bush in 2004, which I VERY much regret. But I came from a Republican, small-business-owning family and although I've always been very liberal on social issues (like abortion and gay rights), I usually let my pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps mentality rule my vote. But in the last 4 years, I have undergone a major political shift that has been brought about primarily by my major spiritual shift. The way I looked at my faith changed, and that led to a change in my politics.

So is organized religion important to me? Not so much. But my faith, how I relate to the "more" that I sense in the universe, the examples from a spiritual teacher (Jesus) who seemed to just "get it" -- these are very important to me. And my passion for gay marriage rights stems partially from what I understand being a Christian is supposed to mean -- loving your neighbor as yourself and pursing justice for everyone. Jesus was a political leader more than a religious one. He was a rebel, thumbing his nose at the status quo and the corrupt leadership (both governmental and religious) of his time. This is a recent revelation for me, and a powerful one. If he sat in judgement of anyone, surely it was the pious church leaders and not the "sinners". But I digress...

Anyway, I don't care if our leaders are formally religious or not. I just want them to have a deep understanding of human rights and what our responsibility to each other should be, as human beings.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 06, 2008, 05:25:31 PM
HuffPo's  Obama Cabinet page. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/obama-cabinet)

Rahm Emmanuel is a good choice for Chief of Staff.  He knows the caucus, and isn't afraid to tussle, if needed.

I'm not excited about the prospect of Larry Summers as Treasury Secretary.  He was was a total sexist jerk when he was the head of Harvard.   

Robert Kennedy, Jr as head of EPA would be awesome.   

On preview: Lieberman should just man-up and switch sides.  He spends enough time kissing Republican's ass, he should just save himself the trouble.    He really crossed a line at the RNC, and I don't think he'll ever be able to come all the way back.   If anything, he should absolutely lose his chairmanship.

Also, what summerteeth said.   There will be Repubs who will vote with the Dems on certain issues. 

DailyKos diary about Reid meeting with Lieberman today. [link] (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/6/114029/320/282/655693)

ETA:  wendolf - Word to your post, and namasté.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 05:28:06 PM
Yeah, if we get 59 seats, then Susan Collins (just one example) is a good bet to help us defeat filibusters.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 05:29:30 PM
ETA:  wendolf - Word to your post, and namasté.
Namasté right back at ya', susanita.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 05:29:40 PM
Yeah, but with the filibuster I think it is more likely to be party based.

For example, a conservative Dem may be willing to vote against a bill that most of the Dems support, but it's less likely that he would vote with the Republicans to filibuster and prevent a vote on it.

Ah, yes, I see what you mean larry. That's very true.

And once again, well put wendolf. I have bucked you a few times today (waits for it....waits for it...... ;) )

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 05:33:05 PM


And once again, well put wendolf. I have bucked you a few times today (waits for it....waits for it...... ;) )


Thanks, summerteeth! I'd noticed that I'd been bucked quite a bit today! I guess talking politics/religion is better for my self-esteem than talking Jim/Pam (which usually gets me ignored)...  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 05:34:59 PM
Speaking of socialism and the accusations lofted at Obama, did anyone else catch Jon Stewart's show on election night? He brought on the actual candidate for President from the Socialist Party USA, Brian Moore (who's a dead ringer for McCain, funnily enough). He asked Moore if Obama was a socialist, and Moore said no, Obama was a running dog lackey of the capitalists (or words to that effect), who was busy shoring up the oligarchs on Wall Street. He then went on to enumerate what the Socialist Party was really all about. He also said that the $700 billion bailout of Wall Street was in line with Socialist Party doctrine, of the state owning the banks.

I thought it was a hilarious interview. It really showed that most people who toss around terms like "socialist" have no idea what they're talking about.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 05:37:11 PM
Someone had mentioned some flak about Kerry being Catholic in 2004.  I hadn't heard about that, although of course it was huge when Kennedy originally broke that barrier.  On the other hand, I definitely heard things when Romney was running for President about his being a Mormon.  To me the important thing is that a politician can keep his or her own religious beliefs from affecting how s/he runs things.  I'd be unlikely to vote for someone who would try to make the laws conform to his or her religion.

I must disagree, respectfully. Tell me, would you have voted for Martin Luther King for office? I would have. How about Ghandi? Their religion deeply informed everything they did. I would prefer to know where my politicians are coming from, what values they hold, and on what basis, than to have to guess at them. Why would any politician want to hide his or her core ethical values from me, the voter?

Let me bold a part you left unbolded: I'd be unlikely to vote for someone who would try to make the laws conform to his or her religion.

It's not that I wouldn't vote for a religious person or that I'd want a politician to hide his/her religious views.  I voted for Obama, and it seems to me that he has strong religious beliefs.  I'd be unlikely to vote for someone who will push to change laws to conform to his or her religion, regardless of the effect on people who don't share his/her religion. 

MLK, Jr. and Ghandi are people who had strong religious beliefs which informed what that did, but they were also people who believed in tolerance and treating people fairly.  They're absolutely the sort of people I'd vote for.  You also chose two people who, like Obama, value peace.  I love that in people. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 06, 2008, 05:38:21 PM
Speaking of socialism and the accusations lofted at Obama, did anyone else catch Jon Stewart's show on election night? He brought on the actual candidate for President from the Socialist Party USA, Brian Moore (who's a dead ringer for McCain, funnily enough). He asked Moore if Obama was a socialist, and Moore said no, Obama was a running dog lackey of the capitalists (or words to that effect), who was busy shoring up the oligarchs on Wall Street. He then went on to enumerate what the Socialist Party was really all about. He also said that the $700 billion bailout of Wall Street was in line with Socialist Party doctrine, of the state owning the banks.

I thought it was a hilarious interview. It really showed that most people who toss around terms like "socialist" have no idea what they're talking about.

God, it's so true. I believe that Moore was also on Colbert a couple weeks ago, after the first "socialist" rumors were being spread about Obama and set the record straight on the actual content of socialism. It's also funny to listen to people or politicians from countries that have a socialist form of government and how Obama would be right wing there.

It's definitely easier to freak out about unfounded accusations than do some basic research.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 05:38:47 PM
I thought it was a hilarious interview. It really showed that most people who toss around terms like "socialist" have no idea what they're talking about.

Well, one of those people was Sarah Palin, so........
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 06, 2008, 05:39:37 PM
Well, this is going to be far from over. I had about 20 cop cars just pass by my office on the way to a huge No on 8 protest in front of the Mormon church here in Los Angeles [Westwood]. Can't see the protest itself but from the video on the NBC affiliate's Web site here, it looks to be in the hundreds.

RE: cabinet positions. I heard someone toss around the name of Caroline Kennedy for UN ambassador, which I think would be awesome. As for the EPA, I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk about giving that spot to Gore. He would be perfect for that!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 05:42:32 PM
I was just reading that the police were gearing up for a protest. And I'd link it if my computer hadn't decided to slow down  :-\

I really hope, though, that the protesters keep things peaceful. It won't do their cause any good if they can be portrayed as dangerous nutjobs  :-\

eta: sharky, I heard Caroline Kennedy for UK ambassador. I also heard Oprah for that, though - article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7711510.stm).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 06, 2008, 05:43:30 PM
God, it's so true. I believe that Moore was also on Colbert a couple weeks ago, after the first "socialist" rumors were being spread about Obama and set the record straight on the actual content of socialism. It's also funny to listen to people or politicians from countries that have a socialist form of government and how Obama would be right wing there.

It's definitely easier to freak out about unfounded accusations than do some basic research.

Yes, it's always so funny to me given that whenever people lobbed those accusations, I kept thinking Canada is probably ultra-socialism country at that rate.  We tend to have more centralized governmental programs for social services but we're definitely far away from anything that could be considered socialism.  

I read some people saying they'd be moving to Canada now that Obama had won because he was marxist/socialist, and I was thinking, you probably don't want to do that! LOL
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 05:47:12 PM
I haven't read far back about the socialist convo going on here, but I too would laugh when people would say they feared the US would be a socialist country under Obama's rule.  Um....a capitalist society does not turn socialist in weeks, months, or even years.  He can't just take office, snap his fingers, and BOOM! Socialism! 

Good lord if it were that easy to fix things as President you'd think that Bush would have learned a trick or two over the past 8 years  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 05:48:04 PM
I had friends who said they'd move to Canada if Bush won in 2000.  Guess what?  They didn't!  :D  The same friends are probably very happy today.

I hope that protest is peaceful.  Protests scare me; there's just such potential for things to go wrong. (/Kev the coward)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 06, 2008, 05:53:05 PM

If I'm going to be perfectly honest in this thread ... here goes. Some of you who've been reading my posts might be surprised to find out that, up until THIS election (besides the year I voted for Ross Perot -- don't throw garbage), I always voted Republican. That includes voting for Bush in 2004, which I VERY much regret.

wen, coming from someone who honestly just wants to know, can you talk more about what led you to vote for Bush in '04?  Was it a case of voting the party line or was there more to it?  And if you don't feel comfortable answering, don't sweat it.  I'm just curious. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 06:00:17 PM
I hope that protest is peaceful.  Protests scare me; there's just such potential for things to go wrong. (/Kev the coward)

I totally understand where you're coming from TLK. I like to see people protest things they believe in, because it's an incredibly important way to instigate change against injustice, and because it's a vital part of a free society, but coming from where I come from, these things also scare me.

Case in point (and sorry to derail y'all from US politics for a minute here): last Sunday there was a homecoming parade in Belfast for the NI regiment of the British army returning from either Iraq, Afghanistan or both - I can't remember right now which. And so, Sinn Fein decided to protest it, supposedly in opposition to the war in Iraq. Now, I recognise their right to protest, and I certainly recognise their opposition to the war, but everyone here knows damn rightly it was a protest against the British army and, in my opinion, a stupid thing to do. I totally understand why SF has problems with the army, I'm not all that comfortable with them myself, given the things that have happened in the past here, but when we're supposed to be trying to find a way to live and govern together, it was a dumbass move. And at some point, you gotta strap on a pair and be the bigger person by letting some things go.

Thankfully the protest passed off peacefully, after concessions from both sides, but I think it did a lot of damage here. I work with some rather small minded people from the unionist side of the community (and some not at all small minded people from that community, I hasten to add) who had a frighteningly aggressive attitude to the protest. It was extremely uncomfortable for me to sit in work and listen to some of the things being said, and the way in which they lumped in Sinn Fein with everyone of a Catholic/nationalist/republican background - because believe me, they are not all the same thing. I may be from a Catholic background, I may be sort of a nationalist I suppose, but I do not and probably never will support SF. But I don't think that the people who were giving off in work understood that nuance. And it's really not that much of a nuance, to be honest.

But my point is - the protest brought seemed to bring out the worst in people, at least for a little bit. Some people got angry and bitter, and the people they get bitter at get bitter in response, and so it goes.

Apologies for the side-tracking - I've become rather pessimistic and frustrated at the way things are here lately, mostly because of these particular dumbasses I work with. I thought we'd moved on a bit till I heard the crap they come out with  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 06:01:53 PM

If I'm going to be perfectly honest in this thread ... here goes. Some of you who've been reading my posts might be surprised to find out that, up until THIS election (besides the year I voted for Ross Perot -- don't throw garbage), I always voted Republican. That includes voting for Bush in 2004, which I VERY much regret.

wen, coming from someone who honestly just wants to know, can you talk more about what led you to vote for Bush in '04?  Was it a case of voting the party line or was there more to it?  And if you don't feel comfortable answering, don't sweat it.  I'm just curious. 

I ditto Wendolf on always voting republican up until now (well, once I voted Independent), including voting for Bush in the last election.

And I can't speak for Wendolf, but I can tell you that I hated the Kerry/Edwards ticket.  First, I think Edwards came across as slimy for some reason, and I thought that before the thing with his wife.

I had become disillusioned with Bush, sure, but I felt that he would be more aggressive with our country's security (keep in mind, this was only 3 yrs post 9/11) and even though I resented being in Iraq, at that point voting Bush out wouldn't have changed that.  I felt like John Kerry had no fire, no passion and I didn't ever feel like I really, truly knew how he planned to follow through on the promises he made for health care, Iraq, etc.  Bush was more of the same, yeah, but I guess at the time Kerry, for me, was an unknown that didn't really hold any...promise?  Eh...I don't know.

For me, I will admit that I am a social liberal, and fiscally conservative, but at this point I feel like the conservative views that bother me (coupled with Bush's ineptitude) were more important than any tax increase, etc.  And honestly, I find Obama to be inspiring and I think he is what this country needs right now. He reminds me of JFK in the way he speaks and he's obviously controversial.  I always wondered what JFK could have accomplished before he died, and I think that Obama could be the best thing that this country needs right now.

So, I'm not Wendolf, but that's MY answer, lol.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 06, 2008, 06:06:45 PM
Thanks kells.... I was living overseas for the last election and the media coverage was... well, I get the feeling it was VERY different than what was shown in the US.  I was shocked that Bush carried the election, and even more shocked by the margin.  I've always wondered what influenced the decisions of the voters that year.  Thanks for putting in your 2 cents!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 06, 2008, 06:06:53 PM
That's very interesting to hear, kells8995.  Because I can only say that as an outsider, my mind was absolutely boggled when Bush was reelected in 04.

Ha, notatoy beat me to it! :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 06, 2008, 06:07:19 PM
I can give you another answer on that notatoy. A friend of mine told me she voted for him because she believed Bush was the lesser of two evils when I felt that way about Kerry.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 06:08:45 PM
Let me tell you, I took a ton of flack for voting for Bush again, but I still say that if Kerry had been elected, well I don't think this country would be in much better shape right now.  I'm not saying Bush did a good job, and sure I feel regret for voting for him, but I have no doubt that John Kerry would not have been the change that we REALLY needed.  I think the Democrats had no one else, to be honest.

I can give you another answer on that notatoy. A friend of mine told me she voted for him because she believed Bush was the lesser of two evils when I felt that way about Kerry.

Yeah, I think that could sum it up too, for me.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 06, 2008, 06:09:20 PM
OK, I feel like I'm missing part of the game here... was Kerry really perceived as an evil?  What aspects of his doctrine supported this perspective?  
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 06:14:14 PM
OK, I feel like I'm missing part of the game here... was Kerry really perceived as an evil?  What aspects of his doctrine supported this perspective?  

Well, first of all, the term 'evil' is used loosely.  Do I truly believe he is evil?  Of course not - it's just an expression and honestly I sort of feel that way about all politicians, lol.  Really - you never TRULY know what they'll do until they get into office.  A common perception of politicians is that they will lie and say what they have to in order to get elected. So, I think that's where the "lesser of two evils" comes in.

It's been years, obviously, but absolutely nothing of Kerry's campaign stood out to me.  Nothing.  And I realize it's not about that, but the thing is when I listened to him talk I didn't truly believe he would make all of these wonderful changes that he promised.  I remember thinking, at the time, "How is he going to pull THAT off?" and never really hearing that answer. 

But no, I didn't consider him EVIL.  Just an expression, honestly.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 06, 2008, 06:16:24 PM
OK, I feel like I'm missing part of the game here... was Kerry really perceived as an evil?  What aspects of his doctrine supported this perspective?  

I do not think Kerry was "evil" obviously I voted for him, but I don't think he inspired people to want to flip sides and change it up. People felt very luke warm about him and didn't feel as if we had the best choice up there. I think really we needed that to rev up to this election.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 06:18:17 PM
I was a big Dean supporter, so I never really cared for Kerry (but I did vote for him). The whole rationale behind his candidacy was that he was "electable".

However, I will say one thing about the misery that was 2004. Something good came out of it.

Dean lost, but he became the DNC Chair and instituted the 50 state strategy. Democrats start winning in places they hardly ever competed before. This set the stage for Obama to win in places like VA, NC, IN, CO, and NV. We were threatening to become a regional party before Dean came along and changed that.

Kerry ran a terrible campaign, but he made one brilliant decision. He gave Obama the spotlight by picking him to deliver the keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention. Obama was only a state senator at this time, but Kerry saw his potential and elevated him to the national spotlight.  
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 06, 2008, 06:18:54 PM
I can give you another answer on that notatoy. A friend of mine told me she voted for him because she believed Bush was the lesser of two evils when I felt that way about Kerry.

I have a family member who thought Bush was sort of like a dad/grandfather who would take care of you.  I never got that vibe from him, but that's how she felt.  I was never crazy about Kerry, and whoever said he was uninspiring...oh, yeah.  He has "uninspiring" in droves.

I'm not sure how effective Kerry would have been either, kells.  I voted for him, but it was more a vote against Bush than for Kerry.  

I have great hopes for the kind of difference Obama might make.  He has "inspiring" in droves. :)  I loved how he talked to the people whose vote he didn't earn and promised to be their president, too.  I felt like Bush took his wins as a victory and a mandate ("Woohoo!  They like me, they really like me!") and Obama seems to be taking it as a privilege and a responsibility.  Maybe that's my democratic pride showing.  
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 06, 2008, 06:19:07 PM
Quote
sharky, I heard Caroline Kennedy for UK ambassador. I also heard Oprah for that, though

That's IF Oprah wants to take the pay cut. ;D

Quote
I do not think Kerry was "evil" obviously I voted for him, but I don't think he inspired people to want to flip sides and change it up. People felt very luke warm about him and didn't feel as if we had the best choice up there. I think really we needed that to rev up to this election.

Exactly. There was nothing that made me excited about Kerry except for the fact that I couldn't deal with another four years of Bush. And yet, guess what? I did just fine. I didn't like it, but I survived.

summerteeth -- Interesting perspective on Northern Ireland. Thanks for adding that.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 06, 2008, 06:20:30 PM
Larry I was a huge Dean fan too and was highly disappointed when that went down the tubes.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 06:21:13 PM
My husband on the night of the last election said that it was probably good that Bush got re-elected, b/c his administration put into play the Iraq war, etc., and he needs to be around to take responsibility and go down with the ship when that gets really bad.   And I guess, looking back, I agree. Because I think had Kerry been elected, too many of the things that have failed were already set into motion, so there probably wasn't going to be a whole lot he could have done. And also, the political will of the country just wasn't with him so it would have been much harder to move in a very different direction.

I think the problem with Kerry was that he wasn't at all inspiring to anyone.  For liberals, he wasn't as bad as Bush, but for republicans, he didn't really inspire anymore confidence than Bush.  And I think that's what you are saying, Kells, right?

I think the problem for the democrats back then is the problem that the republicans are going to find themselves in over the next several years - they just lost their way in the last decade.  Trying to be too much to the center and playing defensive too much on social issues.    (The republicans problem lately is that they play too much to the far right and are too much on the offense with the social issues, IMO).  I'm glad Obama won the democratic nomination b/c I think he really breathed a lot of new life into the democratic party.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 06:26:27 PM
Quote
sharky, I heard Caroline Kennedy for UK ambassador. I also heard Oprah for that, though

That's IF Oprah wants to take the pay cut. ;D

True, true - don't know if she'd be able to buy white guys to lean on in London ;)

summerteeth -- Interesting perspective on Northern Ireland. Thanks for adding that.

Ah, thanks. Really I'm just sort of ranty in general lately, particularly because of the idiots I work with. They've destroyed a lot of faith and hope I've had in this place, and the way they spoke about that protest really, really scared me a bit. Plus, I don't like talking much about local politics in RL, it's often too incendiary (heh - terrorist pun intended ;) ).

Oh, also can I add that it's very interesting to me as an outsider to read all of your opinions here - especially regarding the 2004 election. I can second (or I think third) the opinion that the rest of the world was a little surprised, to say the least, that Bush was reelected, so it's very interesting to read the thoughts of those who voted for him. And I'd also like to add that you're all a bunch of very articulate, interesting, well-informed people. Well done you ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 06:33:44 PM
Quote
I think the problem with Kerry was that he wasn't at all inspiring to anyone.  For liberals, he wasn't as bad as Bush, but for republicans, he didn't really inspire anymore confidence than Bush.  And I think that's what you are saying, Kells, right?

Yes, zeebee...good way to put it, I think.

I have to say that I'm not some staunch Republican though.  I feel the need to clear that up.  I support Stem Cell Research, I'm pro-choice.  Most social issues I am pretty liberal.  Growing up my family is all Republican - but not the ultra-conservative kind, more like Fiscal.  Anti-"spread the wealth", I guess you could say.  While some may feel that is inconsistent, my parents were never supporters of the more social republican views.  In 2000, I voted Republican.  The only other election I could vote in was 1996 and I voted Independent because I didn't like Dole or Clinton.  I'd love to say that I was all sorts of politically motivated and well informed when I was a younger voter, but I just wasn't.  Sad but true.

As I have gotten older, clearly my priorities change, and the things that I care about change.  I have kids now, and I look at them and think about the kind of world I want them to live in, and so I feel stronger about things like better healthcare, etc. 

I won't lie, I'm still not crazy about the "spread the wealth" policy, lol, but at this point my liberal views trump that concern.  For the first time in a long long time I feel confident in the President of my country and I'm excited to see what he does from here. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 06, 2008, 06:34:11 PM
Let me tell you, I took a ton of flack for voting for Bush again, but I still say that if Kerry had been elected, well I don't think this country would be in much better shape right now.  I'm not saying Bush did a good job, and sure I feel regret for voting for him, but I have no doubt that John Kerry would not have been the change that we REALLY needed.  I think the Democrats had no one else, to be honest.

I can give you another answer on that notatoy. A friend of mine told me she voted for him because she believed Bush was the lesser of two evils when I felt that way about Kerry.

Yeah, I think that could sum it up too, for me.

Disclosure: I volunteered for KE '04.  The Democratic party was much different in 2004  - Kerry only really ran in 18 or so states - the so-called battleground states, plus safe Dem states.   

As a very liberal progressive Dem, I didn't agree with everything Kerry stood for in '04, and I personally thought he ran one of the most carefully stage managed campaigns in recent memory and when you couple that with the Bush/Cheney slime machine, IMO that's what did him in.     

Kerry didn't fight back hard enough against the Swift Boaters and those who painted him as "elitest" (sound familiar? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/12/ST2008041200232.html)) , and he tried to run as an anti-war candidate, when he, himself had voted to give Bush authorization for military action.   He was for the war before he was against it.  The GOP pinned that on him, and he could never shake it.

I know that hindsight's 20-20, but I personally feel anyone other than Bush would have been better in 2004.   If Dean had survived the primary, the world would have been different for it, but again with hindsight, what Gov. Dean did to revolutionize the party after losing will have a lasting effect too.

The GOP slime machine tried like hell to slander Obama this election cycle, but Dems strengthened their organization (thanks, Chairman Dean!) and hit back harder, which is what they should have done in 2004.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 06:35:05 PM
I was a big Dean supporter, so I never really cared for Kerry (but I did vote for him). The whole rationale behind his candidacy was that he was "electable".

I always hated that rationale. If "electability" is your only criterion, you'll get a candidate who will say and do anything that panders to the lowest common denominator. Obama must be the absolute poster boy for "un-electable", and he's our President elect. I hope he puts that "strategy" to bed for good.

    O0
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 06, 2008, 06:35:25 PM
Quote
sharky, I heard Caroline Kennedy for UK ambassador. I also heard Oprah for that, though

That's IF Oprah wants to take the pay cut. ;D

I cannot stand Oprah... and I know that is another discusion ready to happen. But I really hope she plays NO role in the Obama administration.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 06:37:45 PM
I guess I just see the biggest loss as the 2000 election - if Gore was elected, things truly would be different today - not so sure about the economy (which a lot of was set in motion with the Clinton presidency), but I really don't think we'd have the Iraq quagmire, huge budget deficits, etc.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 06:39:27 PM
Quote
sharky, I heard Caroline Kennedy for UK ambassador. I also heard Oprah for that, though

That's IF Oprah wants to take the pay cut. ;D

I cannot stand Oprah... and I know that is another discusion ready to happen. But I really hope she plays NO role in the Obama administration.



I'm not really an Oprah lover as well - so I hope she's not going to play a role in the administration, as well.  More importantly, I want to see Obama's appointees put in their roles b/c they are "qualified"

But one thing on Oprah - while I have some issues with her, my biggest problem is the "cult of Oprah".  I hate how there are people who hang on her every word as if it is gospel.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 06, 2008, 06:40:10 PM
I guess I just see the biggest loss as the 2000 election - if Gore was elected, things truly would be different today - not so sure about the economy (which a lot of was set in motion with the Clinton presidency), but I really don't think we'd have the Iraq quagmire, huge budget deficits, etc.

Yeah, that hits me in the griefbone about as hard as Phyllis' Wedding.   /volunteered for Gore 2000  :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 06:40:19 PM
I guess I just see the biggest loss as the 2000 election - if Gore was elected, things truly would be different today - not so sure about the economy (which a lot of was set in motion with the Clinton presidency), but I really don't think we'd have the Iraq quagmire, huge budget deficits, etc.

I wonder about that too, but then I don't think Gore would be as pro-active about the Environment as he is now, and I'm hoping that his knowledge in this area will help in future administrations.  

ETA: and sort of off-topic - after my last few posts I'm glad this forum no longer has a smite button  :P  Kidding, I'm kidding.  Mostly....
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 06, 2008, 06:41:36 PM
I cannot stand Oprah... and I know that is another discusion ready to happen. But I really hope she plays NO role in the Obama administration.

Quote from: Oprah
YOU get a Trade Agreement, and YOU get a Trade Agreement, and YOU get a Trade Agreement.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 06:41:53 PM
I guess I just see the biggest loss as the 2000 election - if Gore was elected, things truly would be different today - not so sure about the economy (which a lot of was set in motion with the Clinton presidency).

You might be right, but although Clinton signed that deregulation bill, if Gore was President he likely would have appointed an SEC Chairman that would have been more interventionist and perhaps warned of the crisis in time. I'm confident that at least Enron et al would have been stopped sooner.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 06:42:08 PM
Sorry for triple posting.  

But, Kells - do you mind answering another question? Why did you vote for Bush in 2000 - since so much of his campaign was fought on issues of social conservatism?  Again, you don't have to answer, but I'd be interested to know your reasoning on that.

ETA, larry - you may be right, but I don't want to unfairly pin all of the blame on Bush.  I mean his administration is solely responsible for Iraq, but it's speculation as to whether Gore's administration would have been able to prevent what has happened to our economy... ???
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 06, 2008, 06:52:43 PM
All of what Susan said is right on, but I think another failing of Kerry's was not framing the election with a populist economic message. In the end, 2004 came down to Ohio, which was already economically distressed. Bush had a really low approval rating in this state, but Kerry didn't give them enough of a reason to vote for him. Obama clearly understood that and made his economic and health care plans the center of his campaign.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 06, 2008, 06:54:39 PM
larry -- Nothing could have stopped Enron no matter who was in charge of what. Intervention wasn't the issue in that case. And more important, Greenspan stayed on as Fed chair, serving under both Clinton and Bush. He now bears a good chuck of the responsibility for the economic problems now.

Quote
I think the problem for the democrats back then is the problem that the republicans are going to find themselves in over the next several years - they just lost their way in the last decade.  Trying to be too much to the center and playing defensive too much on social issues.    (The republicans problem lately is that they play too much to the far right and are too much on the offense with the social issues, IMO).

Exactly. I liked the Republicans because they were fiscally conservative, believed in states rights, and supported limiting government intervention in the lives of the American people. Eight years later, we have a huge deficit much bigger than anything under Clinton, federal laws that should have been decided by the states [partial birth abortion, for example], and a federal law that allows the government to eavesdrop on anyone's phone conversations without a warrant. I really think this election is going to force the party into two pieces -- the Reagan Republicans who still believe in conservative economics and limited government, and the Religious Republicans who will use the party to push their conversative social agenda. These two factions can't co-exist peacefully in that party anymore.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 06, 2008, 06:59:14 PM
I cannot stand Oprah... and I know that is another discusion ready to happen. But I really hope she plays NO role in the Obama administration.

Quote from: Oprah
YOU get a Trade Agreement, and YOU get a Trade Agreement, and YOU get a Trade Agreement.

Hahaha. 

Alamos, I'm with you in hoping Oprah stays far from politics.  She's done a lot of good things over the years and I know many enjoy her (and I did use to enjoy her show occasionally) but I find that she's become quite insufferable in recent years.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 07:04:51 PM
Sorry for triple posting.  

But, Kells - do you mind answering another question? Why did you vote for Bush in 2000 - since so much of his campaign was fought on issues of social conservatism?  Again, you don't have to answer, but I'd be interested to know your reasoning on that.


ETA, larry - you may be right, but I don't want to unfairly pin all of the blame on Bush.  I mean his administration is solely responsible for Iraq, but it's speculation as to whether Gore's administration would have been able to prevent what has happened to our economy... ???

Oy.   That was 8 yrs ago, but I'll give it a shot.  

-His foreign policy.   At the time, I did think that the Clinton administration was too involved with nation building, and (this was pre-9/11) I did agree that it was too much.

-NCLB - sounded pretty good on paper, but horrid execution by the Bush Administration.

-I'm sure I'll catch flack for this one, but I liked his economic platform.  At the time my husband and I were just starting out and made not much, but apparently too much - if you know what I mean.  His tax cut proposals sounded good.  When you are living completely paycheck to paycheck you find that a few hundred bucks a month can be a good thing.  Now that I'm older and, admittedly, my husband and I are much better off, I can deal with less tax cuts, or even tax increases - if they are effective and used wisely by our government.

-I didn't necessarily agree w/ him wanting to fund more religious organizations - I'm not overly religious and don't feel that it has a place in our government, but the argument could be made that those organizations could then use that money for community programs.  

If I remember correctly, Stem Cell wasn't an issue at all in 2000.  I cannot support federal restriction of funding for sc research.  I can't wrap my brain around that at all.  

I don't know, I can't sit here and defend myself on every issue from 8 years ago.  Like I said, I got older, wiser, more in-tune to what I wanted from my country and it's leaders.  I'm sure there are plenty of people who can't "get" why I ever voted Bush, or plain old Republican for that matter, but like I said my priorities have shifted quite a bit since then.  

Also, I'm not 100% democrat now or anything.  As I've said, I'm more fiscally conservative, and I do believe in states rights and there are things that the fed gov't should stay away from.  I don't agree w/ Obama on everything, but I think that he absolutely is the best candidate/President elect that has come along in a very long time. 

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 07:09:01 PM
Quote
I think the problem for the democrats back then is the problem that the republicans are going to find themselves in over the next several years - they just lost their way in the last decade.  Trying to be too much to the center and playing defensive too much on social issues.    (The republicans problem lately is that they play too much to the far right and are too much on the offense with the social issues, IMO).

Exactly. I liked the Republicans because they were fiscally conservative, believed in states rights, and supported limiting government intervention in the lives of the American people. Eight years later, we have a huge deficit much bigger than anything under Clinton, federal laws that should have been decided by the states [partial birth abortion, for example], and a federal law that allows the government to eavesdrop on anyone's phone conversations without a warrant. I really think this election is going to force the party into two pieces -- the Reagan Republicans who still believe in conservative economics and limited government, and the Religious Republicans who will use the party to push their conversative social agenda. These two factions can't co-exist peacefully in that party anymore.

David Brooks - conservative columnist at NYT - has been writing a lot lately about the fall of the republicans.  I think I may have posted an op ed piece of his a while ago.

But he talks about how the republican party has estranged itself from the educated class in this country.  He quoted one figure (looking at the party affiliations of different professional groups) that was telling - bankers - even bankers are in larger numbers switching to the democratic party!  In part, b/c of how conservatives have as of late been so critical of the "educated elite" as if having a degree from a good institution means you're out of touch.  And also, by pandering so much to the social conservatives.  

Add to that, that the republicans are losing much of the working class vote largely b/c they've ignored the economic interests of working class america.  

I hope that republicans turn their backs on the idea that Sarah Palin is the future of their party.  I do hope that they find a more reasonable, and capable, voice to guide them.  Even as someone who is liberal, I want another party that has alternate ideas about how to move this country.  But, I want that party to offer some real alternatives.  

Kells - thanks.  I didn't mean to make you feel like you needed to defend yourself.  I was just curious.  And I think there were a lot of people whose politcial leanings were more to the center that found Bush more appealing than Gore - for probably the same reasons that you state.  But, I guess I always look back at the 2000 election and feel that it was the social conservatives that really "won" that election for Bush.  But, it was a long time ago, so....
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 07:13:28 PM
Quote
Kells - thanks.  I didn't mean to make you feel like you needed to defend yourself.  I was just curious.  And I think there were a lot of people whose politcial leanings were more to the center that found Bush more appealing than Gore - for probably the same reasons that you state.  But, I guess I always look back at the 2000 election and feel that it was the social conservatives that really "won" that election for Bush.  But, it was a long time ago, so....

You may be right, but my point was that, at the time, those things weren't paramount in my mind, kwim?  That's selfish, yeah, but like I said at the time those things weren't THE most important issues for me.    This time around, I don't care so much about possible tax increases because this country has got to get itself out of the hole it is in - fiscally and socially.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 06, 2008, 07:15:59 PM
David Brooks - conservative columnist at NYT - has been writing a lot lately about the fall of the republicans.  I think I may have posted an op ed piece of his a while ago.

But he talks about how the republican party has estranged itself from the educated class in this country.  He quoted one figure (looking at the party affiliations of different professional groups) that was telling - bankers - even bankers are in larger numbers switching to the democratic party!  In part, b/c of how conservatives have as of late been so critical of the "educated elite" as if having a degree from a good institution means you're out of touch.  And also, by pandering so much to the social conservatives.  

Boy, this was driving me so, so nuts during the election campaign - I think if I was an American being spoken to that way, I would have lost it. This also reminded me of this piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/opinion/21dowd-sorkin.html) in Maureen Dowd's column that Aaron Sorkin wrote, particularly this bit:

Quote
You were raised by a single mother on food stamps — where does a guy with eight houses who was legacied into Annapolis get off calling you an elitist? And by the way, if you do nothing else, take that word back. Elite is a good word, it means well above average. I’d ask them what their problem is with excellence.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 07:34:57 PM
My chief complaints about Democrats is that they seem very smug and paternalistic. They claim to be fighting for poor people, but treat them like helpless children who have to be pampered. Worst of all, they never seem to ask themselves how the hell we're supposed to pay for all the do-good programs they propose. "Tax the rich" can only go so far before the rich move the hell outta town, and then who carries the fiscal burden?

For me, the irony of the Republican party is that the party which has historically argued for as little government intervention in our lives as possible is the party which brought us the USA PATRIOT Act, and which consistently tries to peek into people's bedrooms to see what they're up to.

I'm in the middle of the road; both sides throw garbage at me. :-X
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 06, 2008, 07:42:11 PM

If I'm going to be perfectly honest in this thread ... here goes. Some of you who've been reading my posts might be surprised to find out that, up until THIS election (besides the year I voted for Ross Perot -- don't throw garbage), I always voted Republican. That includes voting for Bush in 2004, which I VERY much regret.

wen, coming from someone who honestly just wants to know, can you talk more about what led you to vote for Bush in '04?  Was it a case of voting the party line or was there more to it?  And if you don't feel comfortable answering, don't sweat it.  I'm just curious. 

Ditto to a lot of what kells said in her post. I didn't really like Bush in 2004 but I think my political views were sort of hijacked by my more conservative family and workplace. Even though I was 35, sometimes I felt bullied into toeing the line, so to speak. My whole family is socially liberal and fiscally conservative, and tends to believe in smaller government and the power of the free market to solve the nation's woes. I kind of bought into that philosophy. (I hadn't realized at the time that Bush didn't follow the rules of smaller government!) As I said before, my dad has run a family business for years and years and has had unionization issues and EPA issues and just a lot of typical problems with the typical "democrat" talking points. And since I'm close with my dad (and work for him), I kind of agreed. But as I said in my previous post, since 2004 I've changed my viewpoint completely. I think the free market can only solve problems if business leaders are moral and not greedy (and regulated). I think without the EPA, companies would cater to their customers and stockholders and wouldn't worry much about the environment, even if they know they should. I feel more strongly that it is our responsibility as a people to provide a living wage for all our citizens, access to health care, etc. etc. And I'm freaking sick of these wars (again, in 2004 I kind of bought the idea that Bush knew what he was doing over there -- BIG mistake). So yeah. I wish I could have my vote in 2004 back (although since I live in Illinois, it really didn't make much of a difference anyway). But it is what it is. It's not something I'm necessarily proud of ... but I am proud that I was able to, despite my family and work environment, change paths and follow a candidate I was really excited about. But like NEJ, I tend to walk the line between parties. I've always been sort of an independent more than anything.

Anyway, I was thrilled to cast my vote for Barack Obama and I think he is an amazing motivator. I don't know how much actual change he can affect in Washington, but I do know that if he can get people to care, get people to be willing to make sacrifices and invest a little bit of themselves into the political process, THAT will be the thing that changes America for the better. And I think he can do that -- he has a way of making you hope and care and believe. (However, if Hilary Clinton had been the Democratic nominee, I have to be honest -- I'm not sure I would have voted for her. Not a huge Hilary fan...)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 06, 2008, 07:48:15 PM
Quote
But he talks about how the republican party has estranged itself from the educated class in this country.  He quoted one figure (looking at the party affiliations of different professional groups) that was telling - bankers - even bankers are in larger numbers switching to the democratic party!  In part, b/c of how conservatives have as of late been so critical of the "educated elite" as if having a degree from a good institution means you're out of touch.  And also, by pandering so much to the social conservatives.  

Yep. And this is definitely bad when the people who are able to fund your party's campaigns are the people you're alienating.

And not only am I an elitist, but I'm also a latte drinking, Prius driving elitist. But you know what? Toyota is building hybrids in U.S. factories with U.S. workers. And I bought that latte at Starbucks, which gives health insurance to part-timers. And those college degrees? Both from U.S. schools including a public state university.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zeebee on November 06, 2008, 07:50:42 PM
My chief complaints about Democrats is that they seem very smug and paternalistic. They claim to be fighting for poor people, but treat them like helpless children who have to be pampered. Worst of all, they never seem to ask themselves how the hell we're supposed to pay for all the do-good programs they propose. "Tax the rich" can only go so far before the rich move the hell outta town, and then who carries the fiscal burden?

For me, the irony of the Republican party is that the party which has historically argued for as little government intervention in our lives as possible is the party which brought us the USA PATRIOT Act, and which consistently tries to peek into people's bedrooms to see what they're up to.

I'm in the middle of the road; both sides throw garbage at me. :-X

Re the democrats - I don't think they're really that far-left anymore.  Obama, in his last Florida rally with Bill Clinton, talked about how the democratic party underwent a shift with Clinton's election - how it's no longer about doing "everything" and over-taxing the wealthy.  I think the party as a whole has a more moderate approach to economic and social issues then it did in the days of Carter.

I mean - Clinton was in office for 8 years.  He didn't socialize the country.  If anything - and probably to a fault - his administration pushed for deregulation.  He probably did more for "wall street" then he did for "main street"

But, I guess I do believe as Obama said that we need to remember that our society is only doing as well as the least fortunate among us.  And I'm not saying that as someone who wants a socialist state.  I just feel like it's harder and harder to be middle class in this country - I feel like we're seeing more middle class people become poor, rather than seeing them prosper these days.  And I just really think that a thriving middle class is so important.   But, it's hard - healthcare is ridiculously expensive in this country.  Education costs are crazy - how do you save enough money for your kid's college expenses these days?  I think these are issues that the government just needs to get involved with - if we don't address these issues, then I worry that we're going to have some really huge problems moving forward.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 07:52:31 PM
I think the free market can only solve problems if business leaders are moral and not greedy (and regulated). I think without the EPA, companies would cater to their customers and stockholders and wouldn't worry much about the environment, even if they know they should. I feel more strongly that it is our responsibility as a people to provide a living wage for all our citizens, access to health care, etc. etc.

I'm also a believer in the free market, with some reservations. The free market (when it really is free) is a great rewarder of risk, but it also rewards greed, apathy and lying. There are also some things which IMO should NOT be subject to the free market; the environment is a good, classic example. How does one commoditize clean air and water? It belongs to everyone, so no one can profit from it, but it's a dumping ground for privately produced waste (smoke, garbage, toxins, etc.). There will never be a way for a totally free market to address matters belonging to the common good. So we have to remove those issues from the free market, which is why we need the EPA, etc. On the other hand, I am probably as sick as you are, wendolf, of Democrats and other liberals forever portraying corporations and businesses as the Bad Guys. Big corporations seem faceless and scary---except that their stockholders include MY 401(k), my mother's, my sister's, etc.

We don't have to be Democrats to dislike Bush on the economy; fiscal conservatives in the Republican party have been disgusted with him for years. The small farmer, rancher and businessman used to be the backbone of the Republican Party; many of those folks now think the GOP only works for banks and Wall Street.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kells8995 on November 06, 2008, 07:54:28 PM
My chief complaints about Democrats is that they seem very smug and paternalistic. They claim to be fighting for poor people, but treat them like helpless children who have to be pampered. Worst of all, they never seem to ask themselves how the hell we're supposed to pay for all the do-good programs they propose. "Tax the rich" can only go so far before the rich move the hell outta town, and then who carries the fiscal burden?

For me, the irony of the Republican party is that the party which has historically argued for as little government intervention in our lives as possible is the party which brought us the USA PATRIOT Act, and which consistently tries to peek into people's bedrooms to see what they're up to.

I'm in the middle of the road; both sides throw garbage at me. :-X

I love this post.  Love it.  I totally agree with you - my problem with Democratic tendencies thus far has been all of these promises that would take care of all these people - but where does the money come from?  And it's not only the "rich" that would pay more, either.  

My major problems w/ the Republican party, as I've already said, is their conservatism.  Why on earth should we care about gay marriage or overturning RvW?  I feel like this country has enough problems - we don't need to stick our noses in people's personal lives.

And I don't think I would have voted for Hillary either.  Lord help me if McCain/Palin or Hillary would have been my only options.  Thank goodness it didn't come to that.

As for big business.....I feel like McCain never addressed why he proposed tax cuts for bigger businesses.  I sort of agree that if they have to pay more, they'll leave for cheaper labor, which in turn hurts the US.  But McCain never really seemed to defend his stance and I think it was a legitimate one.

But whatever.  I'm excited that the election is over, Obama was elected, and we're moving forward.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 06, 2008, 07:57:10 PM
And not only am I an elitist, but I'm also a latte drinking, Prius driving elitist. But you know what? Toyota is building hybrids in U.S. factories with U.S. workers. And I bought that latte at Starbucks, which gives health insurance to part-timers. And those college degrees? Both from U.S. schools including a public state university.

What is it about driving a hybrid that gives off this elitists aura?? I think we're trying to do some good, so shame on us? I know that has nothing to do with this very informative discussion but I always find that so annoying.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 08:00:39 PM
What is it about driving a hybrid that gives off this elitists aura?? I think we're trying to do some good, so shame on us? I know that has nothing to do with this very informative discussion but I always find that so annoying.

They are trendy, foreign, hard to get, and more expensive than an American-built car with comparable mileage; to buy one you have to pay up to $20,000 more than a non-hybrid car.

Having said that, I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I could afford one.   :D

Quote from:  sharky on Today at 05:48:15 PM
And not only am I an elitist, but I'm also a latte drinking, Prius driving elitist. But you know what? Toyota is building hybrids in U.S. factories with U.S. workers. And I bought that latte at Starbucks, which gives health insurance to part-timers. And those college degrees? Both from U.S. schools including a public state university.

Dude, there's nothing elitist about lattes any more. Joe the Plumber probably has three a day.

One of the job-stimulating programs that Obama proposed that I liked was the idea of giving a $3000 tax break to companies that hire US workers. That makes fiscal sense to me: the $3000 the government loses in tax breaks is made up by the payroll taxes on the new worker. It would pay for itself. Ka-ching!

edited for skanky formatting
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 06, 2008, 08:02:34 PM
My Civic was 23k, that's not 20k more than the comparable non-hybrid.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 06, 2008, 08:07:16 PM
My Civic was 23k, that's not 20k more than the comparable non-hybrid.

You're right. My bad. I should have said $10,000. My Ford is a non-hybrid that cost me $15,000; the Toyota dealer down the street was selling Priuses (on back order) for upwards of $25,000.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 06, 2008, 08:11:52 PM
Alright, I feel ya dawg. I had a Focus for years and loved it but was able to invest in the Honda this time around and just knowing how well built they are, couldn't resist.

Sort of OT: I was at lunch today sitting really close to this table of 3 older gentlemen, I'm guessing 70's age and was annoyed to get to listen to them talk about politics the entire time. I live in AZ so you can only imagine. I was hoping to go to lunch, enjoy the time away from work, and just chill with my best bud but no. Soon this will all be over. Which is ironic since I've been in "here" all day. :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 06, 2008, 09:15:47 PM

Re the democrats - I don't think they're really that far-left anymore.  Obama, in his last Florida rally with Bill Clinton, talked about how the democratic party underwent a shift with Clinton's election - how it's no longer about doing "everything" and over-taxing the wealthy.  I think the party as a whole has a more moderate approach to economic and social issues then it did in the days of Carter.

I mean - Clinton was in office for 8 years.  He didn't socialize the country.  If anything - and probably to a fault - his administration pushed for deregulation.  He probably did more for "wall street" then he did for "main street"

But, I guess I do believe as Obama said that we need to remember that our society is only doing as well as the least fortunate among us.  And I'm not saying that as someone who wants a socialist state.  I just feel like it's harder and harder to be middle class in this country - I feel like we're seeing more middle class people become poor, rather than seeing them prosper these days.  And I just really think that a thriving middle class is so important.   But, it's hard - healthcare is ridiculously expensive in this country.  Education costs are crazy - how do you save enough money for your kid's college expenses these days?  I think these are issues that the government just needs to get involved with - if we don't address these issues, then I worry that we're going to have some really huge problems moving forward.

Yes, this is very true.   Barack Obama is a very pragmatic, centrist Democrat.  The whole socialist/marxist thing is just spin from the GOP.  It isn't socialism to want to help out, and I really liked the way you phrased this, "the least fortunate among us."   

Here's the thing.  The idea that everyone starts off on the same foot and has the same opportunities in American society is a myth.  Not everyone receives an equal education.  We don't all live in safe, secure neighborhoods, and we don't all have intact families.  Those are all challenges that have a deep effect on a person's chances for upward mobility.  Helping people is an investment in our society.

The middle class in this country is shrinking because we have an administration that values corporations and their interests over people -- the folks who actually do the work in this country, rather than the CEOs who have received more corporate welfare in bailouts and tax credits than middle class families.  That is what Obama meant when he talked about "spreading the wealth" around. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 06, 2008, 09:44:36 PM
Wow - ask a question, go home from work and walk the dog, settle in and watch TO and the thread moves 3 pages?  I thought this was the JK thread for a little while.

I want to thank kells and wen and everyone else for indulging my curiosity.  I really apppreciate you guys putting your thought process from 4 and sometimes 8 years ago out there.  It takes a lot of bravery to put that out there, especially as it was so long ago.  Four years ago for me I had no real idea what was going on in everyday US life, so the election results were a bit of a shocker for me. 

A quick anecdote about this election, one that actually made me feel warm and cheesy inside.  I talked to my dad tonight.  He's an immigrant.  The country where he grew up has been mired in a civil war and political corruption for over 30 years.  His brother was taken by the government one night and was never heard from again, simply because he was a teacher who was rumored to have 'radical' ideas.  He goes back and sees people starving in the streets while others drop the equivalent of a year's salary on clothing.  My father is also one of the 'wealthier' members of US society.  His taxes are going to go up with Obama, and to be honest, no, he can't really afford that.  Shocking I know, but it's true.   :-\

My dad has been a supporter of Obama for at least 18 months now.  He's not an emotional man whatsoever.  Due to the things that he's seen in his life, he's a little cynical.  He lives in NC, one of the reddest of the red states.  He went out and voted early.  He called me on election day to make sure I cast my vote.  He talked to his friends, my friends, anyone he came in contact with and asked if they voted.  NOT if they voted his way, but if they voted.  I talked to him today and he brought tears to my eyes.  He said, "Honey, I'm so glad that they counted my vote.  I never thought I'd see this day.  I'm so glad that I made a difference."

Regardless of anything that happens in the next 4 years, I'll thank Obama for that. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 07, 2008, 10:03:49 AM
Hmm. This is interesting:  Young voters not essential to Obama win (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27582147/).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 07, 2008, 10:51:16 AM
notatoy   Thank you for sharing such a sweet story about your Dad.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 07, 2008, 11:05:17 AM
Hmm. This is interesting:  Young voters not essential to Obama win (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27582147/).

Thanks for that link, summerteeth.  That was really interesting.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 07, 2008, 12:48:30 PM
That's interesting analysis about the young vote. But really, it's because the election was a blowout. No doubt in a closer election, those young voters would have been essential to his victory.

Also, I did a quick look at the exit polling in the states Obama lost. It is very encouraging for Democrats. If we just count the young vote (18-29), Obama would have 481 electoral votes.

He picks up the following states:

Alabama: 50-49
Arizona: 52-48
Kansas: 51-47
Kentucky: 51-48
Mississippi: 56-43
Missouri: 59-39
Montana: 61-37
Nebraska: 54-43
North Dakota: 51-47
South Carolina: 55-44
South Dakota: 50-48
Tennessee: 55-43
Texas: 54-45

He still loses the following states:

Alaska: 36-62
Georgia: 48-51
Idaho: 41-56
Louisiana: 48-49
Oklahoma: 40-60
Utah: 33-62
West Virginia: 47-52

Too close to call:

Arkansas: 49-49

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 07, 2008, 12:49:55 PM
Arizona: 52-48

Yay! ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 07, 2008, 01:15:07 PM
That's interesting analysis about the young vote. But really, it's because the election was a blowout. No doubt in a closer election, those young voters would have been essential to his victory.

With electoral votes, it was sort of a blowout, but there were some states (including 4 battleground states) where the difference was only 1 or 2%.  If all the states had the ability to split electoral votes it would have been much closer. 

Looking at the popular vote on the CNN site, it was 65,101,106 (53%) for Obama vs. 57,168,270 (46%) for McCain.  I definitely wouldn't call that a blowout, but maybe it is.

I really wonder what would have happened if McCain had chosen a different VP.  I think there might have been some of the undecideds who would have gone for him if he had had a good sort of solid running mate like Obama had in Biden.  NBC (I think) was reporting on election night about the exit polls.  Palin was considered competent/able to be President or VP by a good percentage of very conservative Republicans, Evangelicals, and...one more group -- can't remember right now.  But of the rest of the people, it was something like 60% who thought she was unqualified.

I know that Palin was chosen to appeal to the far right, and she fired some people up and was good in some ways for the ticket.  But would the far right have ever considered voting for Obama even if the VP choice were more middle of the road Republican?  I can't imagine it.  They'd have chosen McCain since at least he was a Republican and had similar philosophies to them.

McCain's choice certainly made me doubt his ability to make great decisions, and I would think there are others who thought the same.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 07, 2008, 01:43:54 PM
About age and voting, I found this interesting:

(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9236/agesrn2.jpg)

Source: http://redbluerichpoor.com/blog/?p=206
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 07, 2008, 01:45:35 PM
TLK, I consider it a blowout under modern circumstances. The country is far more divided than it used to be, meaning a higher number of votes are decided before the election than in the past. I don't think we'll be seeing another 59-41 total like in 1984.

Obama's popular vote victory over McCain is getting very close to the same percentage that Bush Sr. beat Dukakis.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 07, 2008, 01:48:21 PM
Gotcha.  Thanks, larry. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 07, 2008, 02:25:16 PM
Nice photos of Obama from the campaign trail. A great look behind the scenes:

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0810/callie-bp.html
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 07, 2008, 02:46:52 PM
I know that Palin was chosen to appeal to the far right, and she fired some people up and was good in some ways for the ticket.  But would the far right have ever considered voting for Obama even if the VP choice were more middle of the road Republican?  I can't imagine it.  They'd have chosen McCain since at least he was a Republican and had similar philosophies to them.

I totally agree that that particular demographic would never have voted for Obama, but I think perhaps the reasoning behind picking Palin was to ensure that those folks didn't stay home on election day because they thought McCain was too moderate on a lot of issues for their liking. And without that demo coming out to bat for him, McCain wouldn't have had a chance.

Still, that plan clearly didn't work since she turned so many people off the Republican ticket.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on November 07, 2008, 03:14:38 PM
Obama is giving a news conference.

You can watch it online at MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 07, 2008, 03:57:06 PM
I know that Palin was chosen to appeal to the far right, and she fired some people up and was good in some ways for the ticket.  But would the far right have ever considered voting for Obama even if the VP choice were more middle of the road Republican?  I can't imagine it.  They'd have chosen McCain since at least he was a Republican and had similar philosophies to them.

I totally agree that that particular demographic would never have voted for Obama, but I think perhaps the reasoning behind picking Palin was to ensure that those folks didn't stay home on election day because they thought McCain was too moderate on a lot of issues for their liking. And without that demo coming out to bat for him, McCain wouldn't have had a chance.

Still, that plan clearly didn't work since she turned so many people off the Republican ticket.

I think it says a lot that Republicans had to be persuaded to vote for their own party.  Clearly a lot needs to change within the GOP; this loss should go a long way toward getting them to reexamine their platform and approach.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 07, 2008, 04:08:22 PM
I totally agree that that particular demographic would never have voted for Obama, but I think perhaps the reasoning behind picking Palin was to ensure that those folks didn't stay home on election day because they thought McCain was too moderate on a lot of issues for their liking. And without that demo coming out to bat for him, McCain wouldn't have had a chance.
 

While it may be true that people thought that way, it would have been stupid.  (They apparently haven't taken Michael's "Don't be an idiot" advice to heart.)  For that group, staying home was like a vote for Obama.  The whole point of voting for the "lesser of two evils" is not to end up with who you think is the greater evil.  Oh well, moot point.  McCain did choose Palin and didn't win the Presidency.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on November 07, 2008, 04:18:07 PM
Within the ranks of the GOP, McCain is known as a RINO -- Republican In Name Only.  Which is why they wanted someone more conservative as VP, not just to balance the ticket, but to reassure the 'party faithful' that the party was headed toward the right.

I'd say that many Republicans are dissatisfied with how Bush spent most of his second term as a lame duck, and/or were not happy with a moderate (McCain) as the candidate, but preferred him to an even more liberal candidate (Obama). 

It's not unusual for the party to reexamine itself after a loss -- the Dems regrouped with the DNC under Howard Dean and formulated the state strategy -- which was a huge success.  There is some sort of GOP meeting going on in Virginia this week, but it's at a private residence, so it's still the party leadership making decisions in a vacuum without seeking input from the membership at large. 

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 07, 2008, 05:39:51 PM
Hey guys, this is a little out of left field and possibly the wrong thread, but can anyone recommend any good books on American history? All this election fever and everything has me wanting to read and write the way I used to when I took history in school and at university, and I've never really studied much US history before the 20th century (by which I mean I haven't covered history before the 20th century, not that I didn't get to actually study before then cos, y'know, I wasn't born till 1982 so that woulda been pretty hard ;)).

So, any suggestions of good overviews to start with would, by me, be appreciated. If a decent book exists that would cover at least from the revolution through to the end of the civil war that anyone can recommend, that'd be great. I mean I know I can just look on Amazon and stuff, but as a former history student I tend to be very particular about reading stuff from historians who are thought to be thorough and fair, and I figured some of you might know.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 07, 2008, 06:06:35 PM
American Scripture by Pauline Maier.
Benjamin Franklin: An American Life by Walter Isaacson.

I read both of those and liked them.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 07, 2008, 06:11:08 PM
Thanks Swedge!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 07, 2008, 06:19:05 PM
I don't know if Everybody Hurts reads this thread, but she's a Civil War buff, so you could PM her asking about books about that period.

Within the ranks of the GOP, McCain is known as a RINO -- Republican In Name Only.  Which is why they wanted someone more conservative as VP, not just to balance the ticket, but to reassure the 'party faithful' that the party was headed toward the right.

That makes sense, but it's unfortunate for the Republicans that it wasn't a conservative who might be viewed as competent by the majority of people so there'd be a chance of bringing over independents as well as Democrats not on the Obamawagon.  I read somewhere a mention that Palin wasn't really McCain's first choice but he was talked into choosing her.  I haven't seen anything more about it than that, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, please link. 

It's interesting that there's stuff coming out now about how the McCain people had trouble with Palin and her people.  It sounds like a train wreck, although I'm surprised she had people.  I know she'd need handlers/helpers for when she was campaigning separately from McCain, but I would think the people would be part of McCain's team and they'd just add some more.

I also don't think the choice of Palin would have hurt him that much with Independents if there hadn't been such a discrepancy in age between the two presidential candidates.  The "heartbeat away" had a lot more importance on the Republican ticket this year.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 07, 2008, 06:24:59 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, TLK.

I get the impression that McCain was talked into a lot of stuff, not just bringing Palin on. Or at least I sort of hope so, I had a lot of respect for him before this campaign and I'd rather think he was talked into a lot of the decisions made about the direction the campaign took, rather than thought they were a good idea himself. Or actually - I don't know which is worse!

And all this stuff that's coming out about Palin - it's almost unbelievable. I'm kind of wondering how much of it is true, or if it was made up/made to sound worse just to get a dig at her. But then again, I actually can kinda believe that she didn't know Africa was a continent not a country, and that she couldn't name the members of NAFTA. All three of 'em. One of which is her own country.  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sharky on November 07, 2008, 08:35:02 PM
Apparenlty, Doris Goodwin Kearns is a great history writer. I keep meaning to pick up her book on Lincoln's cabinet and how he chose people that were his political rivals.

And yes, summerteeth, I'm a little suspicious of the Palin stuff -- how much is real vs. how much is just sour grapes within the party.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 07, 2008, 10:05:46 PM
I am actually starting to feel sorry for her. It's one thing to out someone who is abusing their trust/power/RNC credit card, but to do it anonymously, from ambush...no. That's just cowardly. The people who think she was a problem should shut up or step up. I loathe stealth accusations and whisper campaigns, and the whole idea that "Where there's smoke there must be fire" is total bullshit. I don't like Sarah Palin, I would never vote for her, I think she would be a disaster for the state of Alaska, let alone the US, but damn. This is just character assassination for no purpose. Cowardly.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 08, 2008, 10:09:04 AM
Has anyone here seen this yet? I saw it last night on Rachel Maddow's show and it's awesome! I'm really bad at it, but it's awesome so I keep trying.

Super Obama World (http://superobamaworld.com/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on November 08, 2008, 10:22:31 AM
Has anyone here seen this yet? I saw it last night on Rachel Maddow's show and it's awesome! I'm really bad at it, but it's awesome so I keep trying.

Super Obama World (http://superobamaworld.com/)

That's what I'll be working on this afternoon.

Some nice pictures from the campaign trail. (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/11/the_next_president_of_the_unit.html)

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 08, 2008, 10:46:28 AM
at this stage in the game it feels like a loosing football team trying to blame someone else for why they suck so badly when its their own faults for not practicing.

...or it's their own fault because they should have chosen their players more wisely. :-\  It's kind of sad all around, but hopefully the Republican party will revamp themselves a bit and come back in better shape.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on November 08, 2008, 11:07:28 AM
Sorry, Not sorry - but I don't feel a thimble's worth of sorry for Sarah Palin.    Sometimes karma's a boomerang.  You go around slandering people, and eventually it's going to happen to you.

GOP staffers (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/us/politics/08palin.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) are "mean-spirited", "immature" "unprofessional" and "jerks?"

Say it ain't so, Sarah.    ::)   
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 08, 2008, 01:08:24 PM
I am actually starting to feel sorry for her. It's one thing to out someone who is abusing their trust/power/RNC credit card, but to do it anonymously, from ambush...no. That's just cowardly. The people who think she was a problem should shut up or step up. I loathe stealth accusations and whisper campaigns, and the whole idea that "Where there's smoke there must be fire" is total bullshit. I don't like Sarah Palin, I would never vote for her, I think she would be a disaster for the state of Alaska, let alone the US, but damn. This is just character assassination for no purpose. Cowardly.

I agree with what you're saying, although I don't necessary feel sorry for her.  Not exactly surprising that big time politics come with that kind of petty remarks and character attack, even from the lowly interns.  But I totally agree that it is unprofessional and immature and is hard to perceive as something other than a bunch of sour grapes.  If these aides thought this was so important and she was horribly unprepared to be a leader, why wasn't actually leaked during the campaign when it may have been more relevant for the American voters to know?  Plus, if you're too coward to stand up by your own words, you may as well shut up.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 08, 2008, 05:01:45 PM
Yes, I did understand that they knew it would put McCain's bid in jeopardy if they questioned it.  But clearly, it wasn't worrisome enough for those people to actually speak/leak this to journalists (even under the cover of anonymity) during the campaign.  So it was okay as long as McCain was elected even with someone who lacked competence by his side, but now that it didn't work, you can egg all over her?  Apparently, some people care more about their party than having competent people in power.  I don't have much respect for Sarah Palin as a leader, but the motives of those staffers do seem questionable; it appears about finding an easy fall man for the failed campaign than actually enlightening the public about Sarah Palin or whatever.

ETA: And can I say I never thought I'd be defending Sarah Palin on anything whatsoever.  To be clear, those gaps in her knowledge= worrisome.  I think it's just easy to talk trash about someone when it doesn't matter and she won't be able to defend herself on these claims.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: xoxoxo on November 08, 2008, 05:22:42 PM
Add me to the camp that doesn't exactly feel "sorry" for Palin.  She got in way over her head but even so I understand why she accepted the role she was offered - even if she was ill-prepared to actually fulfill it. 

That said - She's an easy scapegoat now - and for the GOP to use her as one is an action I find incredibly hypocritical.  Not exactly surprising - but hypocritical all the same.

This is politics at it's worst IMO.  When people start to spend their time and energy finding someone to blame rather than moving on and doing something productive.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: There There on November 08, 2008, 05:30:55 PM
Has anyone here seen this yet? I saw it last night on Rachel Maddow's show and it's awesome! I'm really bad at it, but it's awesome so I keep trying.

Super Obama World (http://superobamaworld.com/)

Awesome.  It's almost exactly like Super Mario World for the original Gameboy, which I played a lot when I was a little kid.  Even the sound effects are the same!  

Also, I have a penpal friend who is Brazilian and she sent me a message that really warmed my heart about how one of her professors actually burst into tears of joy when they got the news that Obama had won.  She said that I should never forget what this election symbolizes to other countries around the world.  It was a really lovely letter and a nice thing to think about.   ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 08, 2008, 05:40:11 PM
The online version of next week's Newsweek has the seven part Secrets of the Campaign available. It was written by reporters who were embedded in each of the campaigns and who had access to everything that went on for the past year. The only stipulation agreed to by Newsweek was that nothing would be published until after the election. This deal is nothing new. Newsweek has been allowed "backstage" since 1984.

Link to main page (http://www.newsweek.com/?reload=true)

Cut to the chase—Palin shows up in Chapter 5 (http://www.newsweek.com/id/167905/page/1)

Whether you're a blue voter or a red voter or perhaps even purple, it's a compelling read.


Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: colette on November 08, 2008, 06:20:55 PM
The online version of next week's Newsweek has the seven part Secrets of the Campaign available. It was written by reporters who were embedded in each of the campaigns and who had access to everything that went on for the past year. The only stipulation agreed to by Newsweek was that nothing would be published until after the election. This deal is nothing new. Newsweek has been allowed "backstage" since 1984.

Link to main page (http://www.newsweek.com/?reload=true)

Cut to the chase—Palin shows up in Chapter 5 (http://www.newsweek.com/id/167905/page/1)

Whether you're a blue voter or a red voter or perhaps even purple, it's a compelling read.




Thanks for that link, halfbaked. During the campaign, so much of the reportage is incomplete or scattershot...this looks like something comprehensive I can really sink my teeth into. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 08, 2008, 07:39:26 PM
The Newsweek report is great.

The part about the Obama and McCain camps computers having being hacked into, possibly by Russian or Chinese hackers; that is scary stuff.

And this has to be my favourite quote (and made me laugh out loud): "When he was preparing for them during the Democratic primaries, Obama was recorded saying, "I don't consider this to be a good format for me, which makes me more cautious. I often find myself trapped by the questions and thinking to myself, 'You know, this is a stupid question, but let me … answer it.' So when Brian Williams is asking me about what's a personal thing that you've done [that's green], and I say, you know, 'Well, I planted a bunch of trees.' And he says, 'I'm talking about personal.' What I'm thinking in my head is, 'Well, the truth is, Brian, we can't solve global warming because I f---ing changed light bulbs in my house. It's because of something collective'."

Here is more on the crucial issue of the Obama dog! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgdZ0JkjQ7s&eurl=http://www.mrs-o.org/?p=1088) LOL
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bitterpill on November 09, 2008, 10:11:59 PM
McCain will be on Leno Tuesday night.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 10, 2008, 02:38:25 PM
McCain will be on Leno Tuesday night.

Did Letterman stand him up?  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 10, 2008, 03:55:59 PM
I wouldn't watch Leno if Lincoln came back to life and appeared on his show.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on November 10, 2008, 10:49:01 PM
Keith Olbermann's Special Comment from tonight about the passing of Prop 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 10, 2008, 11:43:55 PM
Thanks for linking that, cdgeiger.  I couldn't agree with him more.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 11, 2008, 02:01:01 PM
Keith Olbermann's Special Comment from tonight about the passing of Prop 8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY


Wonderful. 

His sentiments are so true, and make me think of this poem.   

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 12, 2008, 11:21:46 PM
I'm taking back my defense of Sarah Palin from a few days ago.  She's now going on a TV media tour and complaining about having been misinterpreted and giving nice little human interest stories.  Somehow, now reporters are allowed to interview her.  Seriously.  The election is over.  Gov. Palin, take a break from national media and govern your state. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 12, 2008, 11:24:58 PM
I'm taking back my defense of Sarah Palin from a few days ago.  She's now going on a TV media tour and complaining about having been misinterpreted and giving nice little human interest stories.  Somehow, now reporters are allowed to interview her.  Seriously.  The election is over.  Gov. Palin, take a break from national media and govern your state. 

and for Christ's sake keep an eye on those Russians!   ;D

 backouticon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 13, 2008, 08:49:19 AM
I guess she's "willing" to run for the Senate position if they expel the Alaskan senator.  Yippee.  ::)

She's not going to be happy with her 15 minutes of fame.  She wants more, more, more.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 13, 2008, 09:03:48 AM
notatoy, some of those Russians are keeping their eyes on Sarah.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR9V_aOCga0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR9V_aOCga0)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 13, 2008, 01:21:40 PM
Looks like we won't have to worry about Senator Palin.

They're still counting absentee ballots and the Democrat has pulled ahead. He has almost a 1000 vote lead, and the remaining ballots are from Democratic areas.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 13, 2008, 05:15:53 PM
Is my family just insanely devoted to the GOP koolaide party or does anyone else think this too?

Anyone reading this thread, or anyone in the world?  Because no matter how bizarre the thought, there's someone else in the world that shares it.  I certainly don't agree with your mom and grandma.

Regarding your grandma's comment, most people who don't like Palin probably have reasons which have nothing to do with jealousy. I think she might be a perfectly nice person to drink a beer with, but she wasn't qualified to be VP and a heartbeat away from the Presidency.

All I can think about your mother's comment is she must be pretty conservative to call Palin a liberal.  Palin was brought in to appeal to the conservatives and she's probably one of those people who uses liberal as a dirty word.  Did your mom call Palin a liberal before McCain lost, or after?  If it was after, mom may have been looking for someone to blame.

larrymcg
, hurray!  Thanks for the update. :)

 

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 13, 2008, 05:23:19 PM
  Republican women seemed to love Palin.    She represents the center/right wing of the GOP and that is clearly why McCain chose her - to appeal to the "base" of his party.  Barajam,  I have no idea why your mother thinks she's a liberal.   I think Palin herself would cringe at being described as such.  

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 13, 2008, 06:31:34 PM
Barajam, I would be fascinated to hear your mom's definition of "liberal".
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 13, 2008, 08:54:37 PM
Yahoo! has an article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20081107/pl_ynews/ynews_pl145;_ylt=AlDYd5SQ5OpRaK4UGOXpBYLLLJ94) with a link to Obama's campaign photographer's flickr account with some really great photos. There are some awesome behind the scenes photos of election night starting on page 139 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/barackobamadotcom/page139/) of 2941 pages. It's still bringing tears to my joyful eyes, such a sap. :D

One of my favorites:
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc119/deludez3/19c4537e1f2200cf65a53abf92d184ef.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 13, 2008, 09:16:23 PM
Well in the same universe that Obama is a "Socialist", then Palin probably is a "Liberal".
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 13, 2008, 10:26:45 PM
In that universe, the conservative would be Fransisco Franco or ? 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Classic Catch on November 13, 2008, 11:01:46 PM
Ok, forgive me for the disjointed post.

 As a conservative, I think Palin needs to begin to establish some interest in foreign policy immediately. It's fun to do TV interviews with Greta and it's great that the Africa thing came out as a hoax, but she's already established as a brand name: now it's time to really cultivate it.

 This change (no pun intended) is going to take a couple of years. The GOP will most likely gain seats in 2010 (just based on history), but watch the GOP Governors in Florida as well as the RNC Chairman's race.

Speaking of Russians, watch the missle shield statements flying between the Russia, Poland, and the Obama camp. That's a SUPER underrepresented story right now, IMO.

FWIW, I love hearing everybody's views. My best friend is as left as I am right, so we always congratulate each other on canceling out each other's votes on Election Day. What I always remind myself, when we're in the middle of a discussion about the issues, is that she (and about 99% of my close friends) actively and legally work to achieve what they perceive is the best way to improve our country in world. I may not agree with it, and I may spend just as much time opposing it, but nothing's achieved in the public sphere without at least attempting to understand as many sides of an issue as possible.  [/end of unsolicited rant] (edited to add: None of this unsolicited rant was directed at anybody, just figured it was a good time to add where I come from when talking politics)

Lastly, here's a fun website that's doing a great job rounding up the news from the Minnesota recount (edited to add: this is a conservative website, which I didn't realize on first viewing, so just a heads up on that):

Minnesota Recount (http://www.minnesotarecount.com)

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on November 13, 2008, 11:38:48 PM
And sometimes we think this country has moved forward. *sigh* :-\ or should it really be ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 13, 2008, 11:39:15 PM
So what are everyone's thoughts on the possibility of Hillary as Secretary of State? Do you think there's validity to the story (it seems odd that a team known for not leaking would leak something this big)? And if so . . . If Clinton is asked . . . will she accept? And is she a good choice?

(I think she'd be a pretty damn good choice as Sec. of State.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 13, 2008, 11:51:27 PM
She'd be a good choice, and I think she'd definitely accept. The Clinton's still have alot of credibility overseas.

My only worry is that the Democrats better make sure they have a strong candidate in New York, because if Hillary resigns, I expect Rudy to run for her seat. They don't have the same fear if Kerry is the SOS nominee.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on November 14, 2008, 12:01:35 AM
I'm still holding out hope for Bill Richardson.  But I'll take Hillary (and think she'll be amazing) over John Kerry.  I agree that Obama owes Kerry something for the DNC in 2004 but I don't want it to be Sec. of State. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 14, 2008, 12:05:56 AM
Yahoo! has an article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20081107/pl_ynews/ynews_pl145;_ylt=AlDYd5SQ5OpRaK4UGOXpBYLLLJ94) with a link to Obama's campaign photographer's flickr account with some really great photos. There are some awesome behind the scenes photos of election night starting on page 139 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/barackobamadotcom/page139/) of 2941 pages. It's still bringing tears to my joyful eyes, such a sap. :D

Thanks, dm!  There are some great pics in there.  He really has an adorable family.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: brokenloon on November 14, 2008, 12:26:02 AM
An underreported story, it seems to me, is that the Democrats could still wind up controlling 60 seats in the Senate when it's all said and done.  Begich will win in Alaska; given where the uncounted votes are from he is all but a sure thing.  In Minnesota, Franken probably has about a 60 percent chance of winning the recount.  (See here:  http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/more-minnesota-madness.html (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/more-minnesota-madness.html)).  Georgia is an uphill battle but certainly not out of the question; it's tough to know exactly what to expect there.

If MN and GA wind up staying in GOP hands I will be bummed.  The wrong Republicans will have lost.  While I think Sununu in NH and Smith in OR were good senators who deserved to stick around, Coleman and Chambliss are truly loathsome.  Coleman might well be the biggest phony in the Seante, and that's no small feat.  Chambliss, meanwhile, is an utterly ineffectual senator with no sense of decency.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 14, 2008, 02:29:11 AM
I think Georgia is going to be nearly impossible. Don't get me wrong, I'll be campaigning as hard as I can for Martin. The results of the AK race and the possibility that Franken can win the recount gives Chambliss a really strong argument. The best we can hope for is if the conservatives are deflated and don't turn out to vote. They're sending McCain down here, and I've even heard that (shudder) Palin will be making a visit. I'm not sure how Chambliss winning this runoff will help Alaska.  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 14, 2008, 02:33:35 AM

And I thought the Alaskan rep was voted back in even though he was convicted of accepting bribes?


The results are still being counted in that Senate race. As of this moment, Begich, the current Democratic mayor of Anchorage, is in the lead over the Stevens, who was convicted of failing to report gifts. There are about 40,000 votes yet uncounted.

One for Ted. Two for Mark. One for Ted. Two for Mark...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 14, 2008, 02:45:06 AM
There also might be some confusion, because the Republican Rep Don Young won re-election to his Alaska House seat. He's almost as corrupt as Ted, but hasn't been convicted yet.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 14, 2008, 05:14:29 AM
Barajam, I would be fascinated to hear your mom's definition of "liberal".

It was right before the polls closed, and my mother was drinking and borderline hysterical. Saying that when Obama was elected, america was going to collapse.  That within 6 months he'll have been assassinated and either LA or Chicago will be hit by a massive terrorist attack, and within 4 yrs I'll have been forced to move home because things will be to expensive to live out here....OH and that he's going to bankrupt the country by giving handouts to slugs that don't wanna work, just spread their legs ad have babies.

Neither my mother or grandmother believe that the charges against Palin in Alaska was anything but a democratic conspiracy. And she actually called me stupid and closed minded for buying into the "liberal" media.

Thanks for answering my question. I was not trying to put anyone on the spot, I just wanted to know what her views were. Sounds like she's pretty unhappy. So is my husband; his views aren't quite as pronounced as your mom's but he's very unhappy with the election. Maybe this is why the Congress gave us three months between the election and the Inauguration?  :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 14, 2008, 08:49:12 AM
One of my kids is very unhappy with the election results, too, and definitely taking it like a kid, all sulks and rants. :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on November 14, 2008, 09:02:23 AM
Obama should be making a stop in GA also to campaign for Martin. At least, I've heard rumors of it. Plus, my cousin (who works on his campaign in a pretty serious way), is heading down to do some work for him. So... ? I really don't know, but I'm hoping Obama stops by.

But since its a Red State, McCain will make more of a difference. It just really depends on who gets out there and casts a vote on December 2nd. Voter turnout will be less (it always is on runoffs, and I expect it to be way less because there isn't a major presidental vote also), so, who knows. Democrats may still get out and vote because they want the change, and republicans think they've got the vote and stay home? Who knows. But I will be out at the polls December 2nd, so I know that.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on November 14, 2008, 09:40:53 AM
One of my kids is very unhappy with the election results, too, and definitely taking it like a kid, all sulks and rants. :-\

On this note, it's very interesting how things are filtering down to the younger generation.  On one side, it's great that they had a lot of exposure and participation with the voting process.  On the other, they've been exposed to a lot of disinformation.  Case in point.  My boss's son's school had a mock election, just where the kids could go and vote.  He voted McCain.  His brother voted Obama.  The McCain son was very upset that Obama won.  Apparently he had heard that, "Obama cuts babies heads off."

My boss and I were scratching our heads trying to figure out where he got that idea from.  We eventually decided it had to do with the abortion issue.  Either that, or Obama cuts babies heads off.   :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 14, 2008, 10:45:54 AM
Quote
One of my kids is very unhappy with the election results, too, and definitely taking it like a kid, all sulks and rants. Undecided
I remember being very unhappy myself, in 2000 and 2004. 
 All you can do is encourage your kids to get more involved in the process.    If they feel empowered, they'll probably sulk less.  My eleven year old has gotten much more interested in watching the news and learning about the issues, thanks to all the election coverage. 

His school usually votes Republican, by a fairly large margin, in their mock elections.  I knew that Obama would win when his school voted 75% for Obama. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 14, 2008, 10:49:26 AM
My kids were both ecstatic - the six-year-old because he thinks Obama will end the war, and the three-year-old because he is convinced Obama will give him candy.

They are very different, my two.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 14, 2008, 10:56:05 AM
Speaking of doing something I think I'm going to send an email to Rush Limbaugh.  I'm still pissed about his nasty innuendo that Obama's grandmother wasnt truly deathly ill.   Seriously - what a jerk. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 14, 2008, 11:06:18 AM
Just posted this (http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2008/11/priest_says_no.html) in the Gripes thread, but I'd say it applies to this thread, too.  I was raised Catholic (went through 14 years of Catholic school and lived to tell).  Lately, I've drifted.  The referenced article does not make me want to come back to the fold any time soon.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 14, 2008, 11:19:35 AM
Nan, it's kind of like the time I saw an article about a young girl who took her first communion, but her church gave her a gluten-free communion wafer because she had an allergy to wheat. Well, some bishop or something came back and said, Nope, didn't count because the communion bread has to have wheat. So they negated her first communion. Guess they'd rather cause her physical harm than break any rules. And according to Catholic belief, isn't the host supposed to actually become the body of Christ anyway? Why does it matter if it has wheat in it? What, does wheat convert more easily to flesh than other forms of grain? (Sorry... I'm cranky this morning.)

I have a file of articles like this ... I wasn't raised Catholic but my husband was and if I ever need ammunition about why I didn't convert, I've got it. (Gosh. I apologize if I've offended anyone ... seriously, I have a great respect for all of my Catholic friends and loved ones, and the goodness and love of the church as a whole. I just don't get some of the rules.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 14, 2008, 11:28:31 AM
The 'rules' are one of the reasons I have strayed and, to my mother's eternal dismay, have not been able to make myself go back.  I believe in the basic principles of 'do unto others' that Jesus taught, but they get so bogged down in the dogma sometimes and I can't just ignore it.

Yes, it is supposed to become the body of Christ. They even have a term for it: transubstantiation. Uh, sure.  (Personally I have always been okay with the idea that it's a symbolic thing, but that is the dogma.)

Priests are not allowed to deny anybody communion, as far as I know.  His open letter to the parishioners is actually right in line with Catholic teaching; I just wish they'd let the abortion issue be between a woman and God instead of insisting on politicizing it. But they consider it murder, so they can't let it go or that's just sanctioning murder.

And I'm going to hell for thinking some things are gray areas...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 14, 2008, 11:29:26 AM
(Gosh. I apologize if I've offended anyone ... seriously, I have a great respect for all of my Catholic friends and loved ones, and the goodness and love of the church as a whole. I just don't get some of the rules.)

Same here  :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 14, 2008, 11:30:32 AM
Two things; first - your kids are awesome Smiley Pants.

Second - that article, as I said in the Gripes thread, has left me speechless (or almost, otherwise I wouldn't be posting here).

There are few things that irk me more about the Catholic Church than priests pulling off this kinda crap - my own parish priest is a little too fond of bringing politics into Mass, and I do not appreciate it one bit. There have been a few occasions that I would've walked out if I hadn't been with my parents and didn't wanna start a thing.

Here's something that always pisses me off about priests, or whoever, like that - I was taught (by a Catholic nun) that you sin when you know something is wrong and do it anyway. So without being psychic, what the hell kind of right does this man have to dictate to people like that? I mean, I know the Church has certain hard and fast rules about what is a sin and what isn't, and murder certainly comes into that category and that's what the Church believes abortion is, but he doesn't have any right to dictate to people what they do or do not feel in their conscience. And as one of the commenters on that site pointed out - what about things like the death penalty, which the Church also opposes? Wasn't McCain in favour (or at least not against) that? So how can people vote for him without being damned to all hell, according to this priest's logic?

Gah, I can't actually even articulate properly how nutsy this makes me. It's one of the prime reasons that I never, ever pay any attention to anything the Church tries to "teach" me about stuff like this. My mind works, I was raised well, I know the difference between right and wrong, and my conscience is fine all by itself, thank you very much. Maybe that means I shouldn't really practice, when I disagree with stuff like this, but that's a debate for another time.

And wendolf you're not offending me, at least, in the slightest - there are many Catholics who don't get some of the rules either. But then I think we had this conversation last week anyhow ;). Also, I really don't want to offend anyone else who may agree with this priest, I just wanted to state my opinion as someone who is Catholic and disagrees with this.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 14, 2008, 11:30:51 AM
And I'm going to hell for thinking some things are gray areas...

I'll be right with you at the satanic weenie roast, Callisto   ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on November 14, 2008, 11:34:45 AM
My kids were both ecstatic - the six-year-old because he thinks Obama will end the war, and the three-year-old because he is convinced Obama will give him candy.

They are very different, my two.

The reason my kid was for McCain was because of a McCain commercial that said Obama would raise taxes.  No amount of explaining that we didn't have the kind of salary that would make that happen was helpful.  That particular kid got Mom's stubborn streak. :D

All you can do is encourage your kids to get more involved in the process.    If they feel empowered, they'll probably sulk less.  My eleven year old has gotten much more interested in watching the news and learning about the issues, thanks to all the election coverage. 

It's probably more for the Parenting thread, but we don't actually let the kids watch the news.  Our news programs are from a large city -- murder, drive-by shootings, rape -- half the time I turn it off myself.  The sulky one will have actual power in 2016, but not before, unless, like susanita, I get involved in campaigns and bring the kids to help.  To suggest anything else is sort of a lie which would be seen through and result in more sulking.  Families are different, though, and I'm glad you found something that works for you.

I was able to explain about the various issues going on for our state, explaining both sides of each one.  We were able to have a nice conversation about that that didn't cause any problems, even though one of the issues didn't go the way we wanted.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 14, 2008, 11:36:15 AM
The 'rules' are one of the reasons I have strayed and, to my mother's eternal dismay, have not been able to make myself go back.  I believe in the basic principles of 'do unto others' that Jesus taught, but they get so bogged down in the dogma sometimes and I can't just ignore it.

Me too... right down to the mother's dismay.  Sigh.

That letter really infuriates me.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 14, 2008, 11:50:18 AM
Quote
It's probably more for the Parenting thread, but we don't actually let the kids watch the news.  Our news programs are from a large city -- murder, drive-by shootings, rape -- half the time I turn it off myself.
I'm in the same situation here.  But when there are hours of political coverage on the national news programs, we've found it be be pretty safe fare.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 14, 2008, 12:04:16 PM
I think it's really great that you guys are figuring out ways to get your kids involved in politics, or at least give them a good grounding in figuring out what they agree/disagree with. I mean, I take quite an interest in politics and history and that sort of thing, and always have, but I never ever discuss it much with my parents. Anytime there's a discussion I tend to keep pretty quiet cos I'm not really comfortable discussing that sort of thing with them, especially if I may disagree with anything they're saying. Though I don't seem to mind discussing it with anyone else! Obviously, it's more to do with family dynamics and applies to some other things too, but it's great that you're getting them involved young.

I despair when I come across young adults who don't have the first clue about politics, about which party/person thinks what about what, etc., but still complains about things. I know everyone has a right to care or not to care about whatever they want, but I think it's important for people - particularly younger generations who are gonna be in charge in a coupla decades or so - to realise how much politics affects their daily lives, and the importance of being engaged.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on November 14, 2008, 12:06:14 PM
I despair when I come across young adults who don't have the first clue about politics, about which party/person thinks what about what, etc., but still complains about things. I know everyone has a right to care or not to care about whatever they want, but I think it's important for people - particularly younger generations who are gonna be in charge in a coupla decades or so - to realise how much politics affects their daily lives, and the importance of being engaged.

Absolutely.  As Pericles said, "You may not take an interest in politics, but that doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you."
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 14, 2008, 02:29:11 PM
On the Lieberman front, Evan Bayh is campaigning to let Lieberman keep his Chairmanship, while Leahy is saying he should lose it. The best idea I heard is someone suggested that if Lieberman wants to keep his Chairmanship, he needs to come down to GA and campaign like hell for Jim Martin. Seems like a fair deal to me.

Also, it looks like Dean isn't gonna be picked for Secretary of Health and Human Services. That means I expect him to run for Senate in 2010, assuming that Leahy retires. I think it would be an easy victory for him.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 14, 2008, 02:35:46 PM
I think it's really great that you guys are figuring out ways to get your kids involved in politics, or at least give them a good grounding in figuring out what they agree/disagree with.

I made no effort to get my kids (turning 20 and 17 respectively this month) involved in politics. I made serious efforts to get them to drop the damn politics and focus on their studies. Both of them are political junkies. The eldest went to great lengths to make sure she could vote absentee (she's studying in Paris this semester) and then spent election night at a French bar packed with Americans, watching the returns. She called me when the networks called the election for Obama, and held the cell phone up so I could hear the Parisians cheering in the streets. My second daughter had to actually physically defend our front yard from three different gangs of thugs who came along on election day to tear down our yard signs (I told her to turn on the sprinklers, loose the dog, and stand on the front porch photographing everyone).

Now my youngest is getting heavily involved in gay rights politics. She asked permission to go to San Francisco this weekend to participate in a rally for equal marriage. I crossed my fingers and said yes--my only fear is that things may get out of control in the rally. I hope it remains peaceful, but if not, she has standing orders to run like hell. 

Well, and my other fear is that she may not get that book report finished in time...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: macolly on November 14, 2008, 03:02:57 PM
Scranton  and its surrounding area are like this strange paradox when it comes to religion and politics. Mostly democrats, mostly Catholic. I really didn't know you could be anything but Catholic until I was like 10.

And at this same time I grew up learning to live in a world where my political and religious views contradict each other.  What I learned to do was use my moral compass when making my own personal decisions. I myself would never have an abortion. I myself would personally never decide to kill another human being.... etc, etc, etc.  However my faith also taught me to forgive others who didn't have the ability to make the same choices.

Our local priests that have been in the community for ever, rarely, give lectures on political decisions. My own priest won't let the pro-life activists and their gross fliers near our cars. They did their best to teach us moral values, and left the political decisions up to us. They taught us to fish - hoping we'd eat forever.  Seperation of church and state at its best.

Our new bishop of the Scranton Diocese is another story though. He has torn up our area, closing schools, churches, and made defunct the union for the diocesen school teachers. Our local catholics are enraged, lifetime members are turning away, looking elsewhere. Its really quite sad. We had one of the strongest-largest Catholic conglumerates in the nation, and it really seems like one man (an outsider) and his politics are going to tear all that away. Talking about serving your politics with your religion its disgusting.

What tears me up about all of it is that he gave one of those appeals during the election about catholics who vote democrat shouldn't be allowed to receive communion. What I never understand tough is why the commandment of Though Shall Not Kill is only bad on the abortion end. Why does it never count for war, or the death penalty. What I learned about war from my religion is that, war should only be fought when it is in the true name of God. When some group is taking away my ability to pray to and honor my God. That's it. I never knew it was okay to kill thousands of innoncent people in the name of Exxon. Or why is okay for the state to kill that guy who may of killed someone.  Why can the people who endorse those political views receive communion.

I just hope this bishop moves on and a priest from the area takes his place, while there is still a congregation here.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 14, 2008, 03:06:10 PM
Very sad, macolly

What tears me up about all of it is that he gave one of those appeals during the election about catholics who vote democrat shouldn't be allowed to receive communion. What I never understand tough is why the commandment of Though Shall Not Kill is only bad on the abortion end. Why does it never count for war, or the death penalty. What I learned about war from my religion is that, war should only be fought when it is in the true name of God. When some group is taking away my ability to pray to and honor my God. That's it. I never knew it was okay to kill thousands of innoncent people in the name of Exxon. Or why is okay for the state to kill that guy who may of kill someone.  Why can the people who endorce those political views receive communion.

So hypocritical, isn't it?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 14, 2008, 03:37:49 PM
What's stupid about that whole situation is it's not like pro-choice people "support" abortion. I don't clap every time an abortion takes place. i fully support efforts to limit abortions, such as:

1) Sex education.
2) Improve economically distressed areas to remove societal reasons.
3) Make sure comprehensive and free health care is available to all children, specifically those born to poor parents.
4) Increase availability of adoption by widely opening up the applicant pool (gays, singles, etc.).

I think each of these significantly reduce the number of abortions that take place, and it's ironic that the pro-life lobby is against all of them.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 14, 2008, 03:44:29 PM
What's stupid about that whole situation is it's not like pro-choice people "support" abortion. I don't clap every time an abortion takes place. i fully support efforts to limit abortions, such as:

1) Sex education.
2) Improve economically distressed areas to remove societal reasons.
3) Make sure comprehensive and free health care is available to all children, specifically those born to poor parents.
4) Increase availability of adoption by widely opening up the applicant pool (gays, singles, etc.).

I think each of these significantly reduce the number of abortions that take place, and it's ironic that the pro-life lobby is against all of them.

Exactly!  I whole-heartedly agree, larry.  Pro-choice does NOT equal pro-abortion.  It is what it is:  supporting the right of an individual to make their own decision, whatever that may be, whether you approve or not.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 14, 2008, 04:45:55 PM
What's stupid about that whole situation is it's not like pro-choice people "support" abortion. I don't clap every time an abortion takes place. i fully support efforts to limit abortions, such as:

1) Sex education.
2) Improve economically distressed areas to remove societal reasons.
3) Make sure comprehensive and free health care is available to all children, specifically those born to poor parents.
4) Increase availability of adoption by widely opening up the applicant pool (gays, singles, etc.).

I think each of these significantly reduce the number of abortions that take place, and it's ironic that the pro-life lobby is against all of them.

Thank you.  I must say, one of the things I never get is why in the US, it seems so taboo to have sex ed and why in many places, people want abstinence-only education, when it is clearly resulting in a staggering number of unwanted pregnancies.  Getting education is not going to make you do things you wouldn't do otherwise. 

I find it so insulting when I hear people say the pro-choice movement is pro-abortion.  Who in their right mind would be FOR abortion?  I agree that abortion should be a last resort type of scenario (i.e., it shouldn't be used as a form of contraception).  Most women would rather not have to face this prospect given that it's no walk in the park.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Smiley Pants on November 14, 2008, 05:20:46 PM
Scranton  and its surrounding area are like this strange paradox when it comes to religion and politics. Mostly democrats, mostly Catholic. I really didn't know you could be anything but Catholic until I was like 10.

This is what Massachusetts was like when I was growing up. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 14, 2008, 05:35:55 PM
What's stupid about that whole situation is it's not like pro-choice people "support" abortion. I don't clap every time an abortion takes place. i fully support efforts to limit abortions, such as:

1) Sex education.
2) Improve economically distressed areas to remove societal reasons.
3) Make sure comprehensive and free health care is available to all children, specifically those born to poor parents.
4) Increase availability of adoption by widely opening up the applicant pool (gays, singles, etc.).

I think each of these significantly reduce the number of abortions that take place, and it's ironic that the pro-life lobby is against all of them.

Thank you.  I must say, one of the things I never get is why in the US, it seems so taboo to have sex ed and why in many places, people want abstinence-only education, when it is clearly resulting in a staggering number of unwanted pregnancies.   Getting education is not going to make you do things you wouldn't do otherwise. 

I find it so insulting when I hear people say the pro-choice movement is pro-abortion.  Who in their right mind would be FOR abortion?  I agree that abortion should be a last resort type of scenario (i.e., it shouldn't be used as a form of contraception).  Most women would rather not have to face this prospect given that it's no walk in the park.

Totally agree with you guys on this. We don't want abortions, but hey, Arkansas...let's not let single people or gay people adopt or be foster parents. Yeah... that'll help.

Also, I kind of hate to drag her into this, but we see how well abstinance-only education worked for Sarah Palin's daughter...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 14, 2008, 05:37:01 PM
Also, I kind of hate to drag her into this, but we see how well abstinance-only education worked for Sarah Palin's daughter...

Heh  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 14, 2008, 05:51:20 PM
If Obama really has offered the Sec State job to Hillary, if I were Bill Richardson I'd take that personally as he put his career on the line and broke ranks with the Clintons to back Obama at a critical time in the primaries, and he's more qualified for the job.  Ideally though, I'd prefer Richard Holbrooke who was effective in his handling of the Bosnian situation in the 90s.

I don't really get what Obama is doing with regards to Lieberman and Hillary. He is rewarding his enemies, not his allies.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 14, 2008, 05:53:13 PM
I don't really get what Obama is doing with regards to Lieberman and Hillary. He is rewarding his enemies, not his allies.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 14, 2008, 06:02:30 PM
The Clintons bring drama with them though, and a lot of the appeal for me of an Obama administration was the lack of drama it promised. The calm professionalism. Not Bill shmoozing with Carla Bruni.

I'm guessing that what happened is someone gave Barack a Long Island Iced Tea.

ETA: hopefully this will be my last political post in a long while.  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 14, 2008, 06:11:03 PM
He shouldn't nominate someone based on quid pro quo, though. Richardson and especially Kerry would have definitely looked like that. As for Richardson, Obama might have something else in mind for him. I'd be very surprised if he didn't end up in the cabinet. And we don't know if Richardson was offered the spot and declined.

As for Lieberman, I think Obama is just trying to create goodwill with the moderate Dems, who are vouching for Lieberman. Obama will need them to get his policies implemented. Plus, all we've heard is that he wants Lieberman to stay in the caucus, not that he wants him to keep the Chairmanship.

At least Bayh said Lieberman should apologize. It'll be interesting to see if he does. I still think he should ocme down here and campaign for Martin if he wants to create some serious goodwill.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on November 14, 2008, 06:13:36 PM
Hillary looks like quid pro quo too. If she gets nominated for the job, expect to hear reports that there was a deal between them months ago in return for her convention support.

(Okay this is the last one)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 14, 2008, 06:19:14 PM
Quote
Also, I kind of hate to drag her into this, but we see how well abstinance-only education worked for Sarah Palin's daughter...
Apparently she's been misquoted or has changed her tune.  
Quote
Here's the relevant portion of the People interview:

    SW: Has this changed how you talk about sex with your other children?

    SP: I've always been a proponent of making sure kids understand -- even in schools -- they'd better take preventative measures so that they don't find themselves in these less than ideal circumstances. Perhaps Bristol could be a good example to other young women that life happens and preventative measures are, first and foremost, the option that should be considered --

    SW: Do you mean abstinence or contraception?

    SP: Well, both. Ideally abstinence. But we have not been ones to say that students, should not know what preventive measures are all about. I've been taken aback by some criticism that mainstream media has thrown my way saying, Oh, what a hypocrite she is and she's now learned her lesson because she's been against sex education in the schools. And I'm like, when? Where? When have I ever said that there should be no sex education taught in our homes or even in our schools?
 http://www.alternet.org/sex/104411/sarah_palin_on_sex_ed/ (http://www.alternet.org/sex/104411/sarah_palin_on_sex_ed/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 14, 2008, 07:15:43 PM
Yeah, you'd think that there was no such thing as Foxnews or Rush Limbaugh.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: amalia on November 18, 2008, 02:46:48 PM
I just listened to most of Terry Gross's interview on Fresh Air of William Ayers.   I'm a fairly liberal voter who happily voted for Obama.   I accept that Ayers has done good things for education in Chicago.  But when he reflects on his past,  Bill Ayers sounds like one arrogant, smarmy,  jerk.   He actually defended his bombing of the Pentagon by patting himself on the back for setting the bomb to go off late at night.   And it was "only" a 3 pound bomb.  (Hey a grenade weighs less - right?   So that makes it ok?)   Does he seriously not realize that people work in the Pentagon 24 hours a day?   What. A. Jerk.  I think he could use some PR advice.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sharipep on November 18, 2008, 10:37:13 PM
While I think Bill Ayers seems to lack an astonishing degree of self-awareness about the attacks he committed, I also cannot help but respect him for turning his life around and becoming an educator. I don't condone what he did and yeah, it was terrorism and I guess sure that makes him a terrorist, but as someone with a degree in psychology, I have learned to not always equate what people do with who they are, especially, oh, forty years after the fact.

That being said, on a completely separate topic, part of me is astonished that in the midst of all this Prop 8/Gay marriage talk, very few if any major news organizations have touched on the fact that what California voters did was unconstitutional. Yeah, maybe the Supreme Court "took the vote out of the hands of the people" but what many people seem to fail to understand is that that is their job - to interpret the laws of the Constitution. They said that denying gays the right to marry was unconstitutional (which it is. 14th Amendment, equal protection clause - cannot deny one American the rights every other American has; cannot deny anyone life, liberty or property without due process...) and a gay marriage ban, unfortunately for those against it, is unconstitutional. /rant
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 19, 2008, 10:00:40 AM
A bit of holiday cheer (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid353515028?bctid=1349141721)  :) 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on November 19, 2008, 10:12:38 AM
So, I've been up all night working on a paper that has ended up being a lot longer than I intended (damn you Thomas Hardy for giving me so much to say about your awesome book!) and I'm not very thrilled that it's getting bright outside here in LA and I haven't been to sleep. 

That, though?  That warmed my heart and made me smile through my misery. ;)

One of the best things about Barack is that he has a calming presence.  It's why children and babies like him and I think it's why the American people have become so attached.  He makes you feel like, no matter what, we'll get through this.  And even if he makes mistakes (as he inevitably will as all presidents do), I'll still trust him. 

BTW who else watched the 60 Minutes interview?  I thought it was quite informative and delightful. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on November 19, 2008, 10:15:46 AM

BTW who else watched the 60 Minutes interview?  I thought it was quite informative and delightful. 

I have it DVRed but haven't watched it yet. Looking forward to it!

ETA: I have a special place in my heart for the Obama girls because they are the same ages as my kids. Absolutely adorable. What a nice family.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NanReg on November 19, 2008, 10:24:39 AM
It's so uplifting to see such a lovely family portrait.  It restores my faith.  What I like best about him is the fact that he seems like a decent, honest guy.  Of course there will be mistakes but I'm hopeful that he'll deal with us as honestly as possible, and I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on November 19, 2008, 04:31:45 PM
I just listened to most of Terry Gross's interview on Fresh Air of William Ayers.   I'm a fairly liberal voter who happily voted for Obama.   I accept that Ayers has done good things for education in Chicago.  But when he reflects on his past,  Bill Ayers sounds like one arrogant, smarmy,  jerk.   He actually defended his bombing of the Pentagon by patting himself on the back for setting the bomb to go off late at night.   And it was "only" a 3 pound bomb.  (Hey a grenade weighs less - right?   So that makes it ok?)   Does he seriously not realize that people work in the Pentagon 24 hours a day?   What. A. Jerk.  I think he could use some PR advice.


I just listened to my podcast.

I have to totally disagree with you about Ayers coming off as a arrogant jerk. Arrogant in a scholarly way, yes, but not arrogant about his actions. I thought he made some seriously good points. Not that I'd ever condone that kind of vandalism, but he is right in that what he did was not terrorism and, in an era when the government was propagating such violence, I'm actually surprised they didn't end up going that route.

Also, he did say that when they were bombing the Pentagon, warning was given before they set the bomb off. Not that I think that makes anything right, but ti's not like they were like, "Fewer people are in this building right now so let's hope for the best!"

I thought Terry brought up a really interesting idea to ponder and which Ayers only have answered in that do the ends justify the means in this kind of case? The US government was particpating in the murder of thousands and thousands of civilians in Vietnam and Cambodia. Should resistance to that kind of policy been strictly pacifist or was it necessary for the anti-war movement to get violent itself? It's an interesting question to ponder.

So, yeah, while I would never condone the actions of the Weather Underground and Bill Ayers, I also found myself completely understanding where he was coming from. As, you know, someone born way after all of this went down.

Also, and this is just a silly note, I always find it so weird and strange that so much anti-war activism came out of my alma mater down south in Ann Arbor. I mean, SDS was founded there. I took a class my junior year at Michigan about the history of the 1960s and it was so weird because a big chunk of what was going on in the 60s started right there on campus and I'd walk around going, "Oh, there's where Kennedy launched the Peace Corps" or, "Look! SDS met there!" It strikes me as so strange because I can't picture the people who attend that university now doing anything. The level of apathy that now exists in what used to be a very activist place depresses me.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on November 20, 2008, 08:28:23 AM
The level of apathy that now exists in what used to be a very activist place depresses me.

My husband & I were talking about this when we were watching a special on VH1 about music and the 60s. He figures that people were more involved b/c if the draft. If they reinstated the draft, there wouldn't be so much apathy.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 20, 2008, 04:22:04 PM
Quote
I have to totally disagree with you about Ayers coming off as a arrogant jerk. Arrogant in a scholarly way, yes, but not arrogant about his actions. I thought he made some seriously good points. Not that I'd ever condone that kind of vandalism, but he is right in that what he did was not terrorism and, in an era when the government was propagating such violence, I'm actually surprised they didn't end up going that route.

Also, he did say that when they were bombing the Pentagon, warning was given before they set the bomb off. Not that I think that makes anything right, but ti's not like they were like, "Fewer people are in this building right now so let's hope for the best!"

I thought Terry brought up a really interesting idea to ponder and which Ayers only have answered in that do the ends justify the means in this kind of case? The US government was particpating in the murder of thousands and thousands of civilians in Vietnam and Cambodia. Should resistance to that kind of policy been strictly pacifist or was it necessary for the anti-war movement to get violent itself? It's an interesting question to ponder.

So, yeah, while I would never condone the actions of the Weather Underground and Bill Ayers, I also found myself completely understanding where he was coming from. As, you know, someone born way after all of this went down.

I finally caught up with the podcast too, and I can say that's mostly how I saw it.  There's definitely a level of self-righteousness and some might say arrogance about his attitude, but I think he makes a very good point about the context in which this movement took place.  I think it's difficult to judge with today's eyes.  I also think that he did not try to claim that the actions of the Weather Underground were necessarily right but I can understand why he wouldn't excuse them away either; it was one of the few options to stop the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians.  Did they do the right thing?  It's difficult to condone it, but it is also a moral issue which you could ponder forever without really arriving at a decisive decision; it lives in shades of grey.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 20, 2008, 05:18:26 PM

Oh and on a possibly related note...is anyone planning on seeing the moive Frost/Nixon? about the interviews Nixon gave while being impeached?  ANyone know the political history on that?


Nixon resigned in 1974 before he could be impeached. He didn't grant Frost the interviews until 1977 when they aired on tv over a period of weeks.

There is no way I'm not going to see this film. The trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw6LhKCYUCQ) highlights the Nixon vs. Frost tension of the interviews. Just electric!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on November 20, 2008, 07:02:25 PM
I'm totally going to see Frost/Nixon too.  The movie looks great.  David Frost was on The Daily Show this week to promote the fact that his interviews with Nixon have been released on DVD.  I'll try to get a hold of that too, although I may only see it after I see the movie.

Barbara Walters was being so unpleasant to David Frost when he was on The View recently. (I watch that show sometimes when I work out although I don't know why because it always ends up annoying me so much.)  She was like, "You paid 600,000$ for him, but I didn't pay any money." implying that she had greater journalistic integrity even though all I seem to see her do these days is plug her book.  Nixon did that interview with Frost for the money to pay back the multiple lawyers who defended him in the aftermath of the Watergate.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on November 21, 2008, 02:40:36 AM

 Isn't these the interviews where Frost got Nixon to basically admit he thought the President was above the law?


Yup. I found this vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvyDn1TPr8) on YouTube earlier today. It is exactly what you're referring to.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on November 21, 2008, 05:31:24 PM
It's interesting that Obama is being attacked from both the left and the right for just bringing in a bunch of Clinton people, because he talked about change during the campaign.

The problem with that is most of the people who are qualified most likely worked for Clinton. If they have expertise in their field and they are Democrats, then it makes sense they would seek a job in his administration. That doesn't necessarily mean they are lock step with Clinton policies. In fact, many of them actually endorsed Obama (most notably Bill Richardson, who will be Commerce Secretary).

I was disappointed that Dean didn't get picked for HHS, but I just hope this means he'll run for Senate in 2010. (Leahy is getting pretty old.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kellyKapurStoryHour on November 24, 2008, 05:20:36 PM
I have to say at least Obama offers a little hope I have never been more depressed with British politics. Gordon Brown wants to throw more money at our problems but at what cost it just seems like a temporary band aid kind of window dressing our problems ::). Theres not an election probably for another 2 years yet the other party of politics is reluctant to have an opinion so they can probably build their campaigne on what ever goes wrong. Feels like were stuck  :-\  borrowing at what cost and what alliances now
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 24, 2008, 05:24:08 PM
It's interesting that Obama is being attacked from both the left and the right for just bringing in a bunch of Clinton people, because he talked about change during the campaign.

The problem with that is most of the people who are qualified most likely worked for Clinton. If they have expertise in their field and they are Democrats, then it makes sense they would seek a job in his administration.

My husband has been dissing Obama for exactly this reason. I asked him where Obama was supposed to go for aides who have experience working for the executive branch of the government--ex Carter aides? Or should he go all the way back to LBJ? There aren't that many Democrats with executive experience hanging around Washington who have NOT worked for the Clintons at some point. Unless Obama wants a Cabinet composed of old men with walkers.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on November 24, 2008, 05:32:11 PM
I have to say at least Obama offers a little hope I have never been more depressed with British politics. Gordon Brown wants to throw more money at our problems but at what cost it just seems like a temporary band aid kind of window dressing our problems ::).

We're actually throwing a lot less money than the Americans have for one, and also the way we've bought out the banks means that the taxpayers have a stake in future profits. We have representatives for the taxpayers sitting on the boards of these banks so there is some accountability. So ultimately when they start making money again we should see the benefits in that rather than just bailing them out for them to become rich once more.

Gordon Brown's plan was better thought out than the $700 bailout in the US. Not sure how much a 2.5% cut in VAT/Sales tax is going to help but I suppose they have to try... As for the lack of opposition that's got more to do with both parties in the UK becoming pretty homogeneous as they've moved to the centre - sure there are differences but not the stark left/right contrasts there used to be. The Lib Dems have been a lot better on the economic front in offering different policies.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 24, 2008, 06:14:07 PM
Gordon Brown's plan was better thought out than the $700 bailout in the US. Not sure how much a 2.5% cut in VAT/Sales tax is going to help but I suppose they have to try...

I dunno, I mean 2.5% doesn't sound like a lot when it equates to 1p off a Mars bar, but I guess it all adds up. Whether it'll add up to enough, I don't know.

I'm slightly apprehensive about the tax increases that are being warned about for the future. I'm hoping that one benefit to being on crap wages is that it won't affect me too much. The National Insurance contributions at least are only to affect those on over £20k, which I'm nowhere near at the minute  ::)

I'm glad that there's some sort of contribution for pensioners being announced - £60 pp/£120 per couple may not sound like much, but I know it'll make a difference to my parents this Christmas.

Btw, when is the next general election likely to be? Is there one due next year or the year after? We keep talking about this in work and getting confused - we have so many bloody things to elect people to here that you forget which election was which last time you voted! That's one thing I definitely prefer about the US system - at least you know for sure when the elections are going to be, easier to keep track of that way!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on November 24, 2008, 06:45:48 PM
Well technically since Gordon Brown gets to decide when it is, it could be anytime. However I think he has to have one by 2010 and considering the economic turmoil at the moment it will be 2010 just so that they can show what progress they've made. Personally hope people see through smarmy Cameron's act but then I have my biases I suppose. ;)

I agree about the number of elections - local council, regional assemblies, European Parliament, general election! At least it's democracy in action though right? And as enthralled as I was by the US election I'm kind of glad we don't know exactly when it is because then the press and the parties aren't in constant election mode for the preceding year. Poor Obama had to campaign for a whole 2 years :D That's a long time for an election and kinda makes the government at the time a bit redundant! No wonder he looks half-dead now in the press conferences - how tired they all must be...

And yeah 2.5% is definitely something - I just meant in terms of impacting the economy as a whole - whether it would really stimulate spending much. At the moment I think it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy that everyone feels their economic situation is dire because the mood is like that whereas in every case that may not be true (though overall it's pretty clear things are rough!).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on November 24, 2008, 07:02:13 PM
I was just searching, and I think the last general was 2005, so yeah, it would be 2010, and you're right, I'm sure he'll wait that out.

Even if there were set times for elections here, I don't think it would reach quite the heights of the US in terms of constant campaigning. But sometimes I think the increased feeling of having to be accountable to the public wouldn't be a bad thing - it really is democracy inaction here, the Assembly only just sat back down after over 150 days of behaving like petulant children, despite the economic crisis and the fact that kids don't know how they'll be progressing to secondary school in a couple of years  ::). But perhaps it's naive of me to think that having the press on your back would actually make you do anything, rather than just pretend to. Especially if that press involves the Daily Mail!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: brokenloon on November 25, 2008, 12:44:07 PM
Greetings from your nation's capital.  Just wanted to share some thoughts on the President elect.  There's quite a buzz around here about the way Obama is handling his business and the high quality of people he is assembling to work with him. 

I'm an economist by trade, and while I believe we're in for a tough go regardless of what the new President does, I am tremendously impressed and comforted by the people he is choosing to help lead us through this mess.  Here is an article that gives the flavor of what I'm talking about:  Obama's Brain Trust (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/24/AR2008112402116.html)

I suppose it should have been evident from the way he ran his campaign, but everything I hear about Obama's choices and the way he reaches them suggests that he really knows something about assembling a team.  In particular, it's becoming clear Obama will have no truck with cronyism or yes men, unlike our current President.

I'm sure the Obama administration will be too liberal for many, and given the intractability of some of our current problems even some of his fans will be disappointed in the results he achieves.  But I have a strong feeling we have the right guy about to take the wheel. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on November 25, 2008, 02:35:50 PM
I'm sure the Obama administration will be too liberal for many, and given the intractability of some of our current problems even some of his fans will be disappointed in the results he achieves.  But I have a strong feeling we have the right guy about to take the wheel. 

To misquote our first Republican president: "You can please some of the people some of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time."

There are bound to be issues where Obama fails to please the majority of his supporters. I just hope the country can take the larger view of things. If ALL he ever does is fix this economic mess, or at least show us a way out, I don't care what else he does in office.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on December 01, 2008, 11:37:21 AM
Hillary Clinton named Secretary of State. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/01/transition.wrap/index.html) 

Other posts include:

Quote
Obama also confirmed that he is keeping Defense Secretary Robert Gates in his current post.

Rounding out his Monday announcements, Obama named retired Marine Gen. Jim Jones as his national security adviser, Eric Holder as attorney general, Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano as homeland security secretary and Susan Rice as ambassador to the United Nations.

We're currently having our own drama in Canada; the government might fall after fewer than 2 months in power.  We may end up with a coalition government by the opposition parties.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on December 01, 2008, 11:42:27 AM
Georgia's runoff is tomorrow. I'm planning on running to vote between volunteer and work and praying my guy wins. The political attacks are just insane.

I'm not sure how I feel about Clinton as SoS... I watched a bit of the press conference, but was mostly listening to Christmas music.

And, wow, MA, that sounds.... not so cool what is happening in Canada.... I haven't heard anything about it, what is going on?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on December 01, 2008, 12:41:07 PM
Quote
And, wow, MA, that sounds.... not so cool what is happening in Canada.... I haven't heard anything about it, what is going on?

We have four parties in the House of Commons, which is one part of our legislative body.  The Conservative Party, which is in power at the moment, is a minority government, meaning they don't have enough members of parliament to pass bills on their own (i.e., they need support from the other parties on their initiatives).  They came out with an economic plan to help with these tough times that was cutting in many domains instead of injecting money to try to stimulate the economy.  They also wanted to take away the right to strike from governmental employees.  All this to say, people were not happy, and the other parties are refusing to pass those resolutions.  So two of the minority parties (the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party) are currently trying to create an alliance to take over the reins of the government.  Needless to say, Canadian political analysts are going crazy over this news.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on December 02, 2008, 09:31:17 PM
*sigh* The Jerk (aka Saxby Chambliss won). I did my part and went out and voted. So now I can safely bitch for the next 6 years.

And MA, after you posted that, I asked my conservative friend about her opinion. She left 3 long messages on facebook about the craziness, that basically ended with her saying she was moving to America.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Classic Catch on December 02, 2008, 09:58:17 PM
 I'm a staunch Republican, but I am absolutely addicted to this game:

Super Obama World (http://www.superobamaworld.com)

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on December 03, 2008, 09:13:16 AM
Bringing something over from the Rashida Jones thread, since we all discussed California's Prop 8 in this thread.  It's fun and well done and has tons of good people in it (including Neil Patrick Harris) and enjoyable music to boot.

From funnyordie, RJ (and Craig Robinson) in "Prop 8 - The Musical" (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones) (3:16) w/ lots of cool people. She's credited as a Scary Catholic Schoolgirl From Hell and Craig a Preacher.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on December 03, 2008, 09:22:24 AM
I have been so focused on political events here in the US, that I am not up to speed on what's going on in Canada.  This post at Open Left
is a very concise explanation. [link] (http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/OpenLeft-FrontPage/~3/471958961/showDiary.do)  Interesting discussion in the comments as well.

Miss Emily, I saw that about Chambliss.  What a bummer.   :-\

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: colette on December 03, 2008, 11:13:06 AM
Bringing something over from the Rashida Jones thread, since we all discussed California's Prop 8 in this thread.  It's fun and well done and has tons of good people in it (including Neil Patrick Harris) and enjoyable music to boot.

From funnyordie, RJ (and Craig Robinson) in "Prop 8 - The Musical" (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones) (3:16) w/ lots of cool people. She's credited as a Scary Catholic Schoolgirl From Hell and Craig a Preacher.



I posted this in the RJ thread (where this was originally discussed) but I'm bringing it over here, since this seems more relevant:

Yeah, cute. But this Gawker piece (http://gawker.com/5101326/celebrity+stuffed-no-on-8-musical-too-little-way-too-late) makes some pretty good points about it being too little, too late:
Quote

Remember when the "No On..." California's Proposition 8 (a ban on gay marriage) campaign was struggling for money and support and then, eventually, lost, effectively setting California back 20 years? That was fun! You know what was also super "fun," according to its press release? The making of the new "No On 8" Funny or Die Adam Shankman-directed musical written by Hairspray tuner Marc Shaiman, that he sheepishly and folksily admits he wrote "six weeks later than he shoulda." Um, yeah. So, pardon us, but why the fuck did any of these people involved—Jack Black, John C. Reilly, the ever-smug Neil Patrick Harris, Sarah Chalke, among others—bother to throw this slapdash bit of "duhhh" together, way too late, and then try to congratulate themselves for it?

The press release reads, in part:

    “I am grateful for the invitation from Funny or Die to use their website to express myself the way God likes it best: through music, lyrics and humor,” says Marc Shaiman. “Who could have imagined that such a dark moment in California's history could result in the fantastically fun week making this video. The day of filming was, I think, one of the purest, fun days we have all spent, and if not for the sharp thinking and hysterical leadership of Adam Shankman, it would all still just be in my head — I only wish I'd written it 2 months ago. Damn,” he added.

    “After being so angry and confused about this horrible and unconstitutional public shaming, it was amazing to go out there and do what we do best in protest: sing and dance,” says Adam Shankman. “It was the fanciest piece of community theater I've ever seen. The whole thing came together in one day. It was beautiful. No lunch breaks or egos. I'm grateful to everyone who participated,” he added.

That bolding is ours. And yes, Damn!!!, it's a little late but at least it was super fun for all the richies. All the richies who, with the exception of a few (Margaret Cho included, God love her) were conspicuously silent before November 4th, when this kind of broad-stroke gooey rallying whimper might actually have meant something. Unfortunately for their sanctimonious flimflammery, the time for chummy, har har "let's quote Leviticus!" musical protest ended a while ago.

This reminds us how smart Obama was to keep celebrities from too-vocally supporting him. (They stuck to simple "Do as you're told by famous people: Vote" web ad campaign videos). Because usually they seem really obnoxious and do more to aggravate than they do to inure.

Oh, plus the music sucks.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: susanita on December 03, 2008, 11:54:10 AM
Totally too little too late, but I blame the lack of activist coordination waaaaay more than the funny folks on the interwebs.   

I think people took it for granted that a so called "liberal" state like CA would never let such a proposition pass.  Lesson learned the hard way I guess.    :-\   
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on December 03, 2008, 12:53:52 PM
Yeah, you know, I'm kind of mad at everyone involved.  I'm mad that the No on 8 people (including myself,  I should've done more instead of solely focusing on Obama) ignored the conservative parts of our state and thought there was no way 8 could pass.  I'm mad that they are only now organized after the fact.  Imagine if there had been protesting of the Mormon Church for weeks or months before the election.  That could've changed the minds of the people who now regret their vote.

I'm also mad at the other side.  I'm mad at the people who voted Yes who now claim, if the election were re-held, they'd vote No.  I'm mad that they didn't take the time to really think their decision out before casting their vote. 

Of course, I'm mad at the Mormon Church and believe it should lose it's tax-exempt status.  I also think that Utah should be boycotted and that if the Hollywood crowd boycotts Sundance (which is painful, now, because of JKras), it will send a powerful message.

No one comes out looking good in any of this, really.  The ban will be overturned by the CA Supreme Court and the issue will end up back on the ballot.  I just hope that, if anything, all the post-election activities do make a difference.  That's the one positive thing to come out of this mess.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on December 03, 2008, 07:37:45 PM
I'm really gonna miss systematically destroying this place (http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/im_really_gonna_miss?utm_source=onion_rss_daily)
Oh, Onion, how I love the.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on December 04, 2008, 03:29:19 PM
However, Prop 8 is significantly weaker than Prop 22  was when put under judicial scrutinty, because 1.) The campainge was heavily funded by, based on, and promoted using the doctrine of Religious Instiutions so it will come afoul of the Separation clause.

I have not seen this as a basis for a legal challenge to Proposition 8 anywhere. Where did you get this information?

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution. The "clause" you refer to is called the Establishment clause, and merely states that Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of an official state religion, or preventing the free excercise of religion (including advocating specific political policy). Prop 8 has nothing to do with establishing a State Church of California, or preventing people from practicing their religion; the issue is irrelevant.

And I don't think protesting the Morman church in advance would have helped.  It might have hurt. This is a subject that devoutly religious people will never be able to be trusted to vote on subjectively no matter how much activists try to educate them.  Sadly, civil liberties cannot be trusted to the hands of civilians.  Which is why the court has the authority to overturn such a vote.

First of all, I think the word you want is objectively (dispassionately, rationally), not subjectively (relying on feelings).

Second, ...wow. Really? You honestly believe that devoutly religious persons are unworthy of exercising the right to vote? I find that statement disturbing on several levels. Not least of which is a personal one: I'm a religious person whose religion explicitly bans homosexual activity between men. Yet I voted against Prop 8, gave money to the opposition, and put a "No on Prop  8" sign in my yard. Why? Because I don't believe any religion has the right to impose its views on others, when dealing with consensual acts between adults. Your assumption that all religious people are bigots is short-sighted and narrow-minded, IMO. And as for your assertion that civil liberties cannot be left in the hands of civilians--who do you think ratified the Bill of Rights? Not judges, I'll tell you that. I find this whole "we know what's better for you than you do" attitude to be very condescending.

Quote
cannot descriminate against a protected class of citzens (which homosexuals ARE).
No, they're not. There is no legislation ANYWHERE that spells out a special status for gay people. Which is good, because that fact supports their contention that they are entitled to equal treatment under the law.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on December 05, 2008, 08:16:42 AM
So, this Canadian situation - can any of our Canucks fill me in on popular opinion in the country on the whole thing?

I read somewhere recently (I think it was an article linked here) that people (or at least the guy writing the article) didn't think that the Governor General would agree to the suspension of parliament, but she has done. Other articles expected her to do whatever Harper told her. I'm just curious as to how people on the ground view the situation.

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on December 05, 2008, 10:36:14 AM
So, this Canadian situation - can any of our Canucks fill me in on popular opinion in the country on the whole thing?

I read somewhere recently (I think it was an article linked here) that people (or at least the guy writing the article) didn't think that the Governor General would agree to the suspension of parliament, but she has done. Other articles expected her to do whatever Harper told her. I'm just curious as to how people on the ground view the situation.

Thanks!  :)

Even the political talking heads seem pretty confused on this one, and many of them said they didn't know which way it would go although I had read/heard that the Prime Minister has a lot of say and weight with the Governor General in deciding how parliament should go. 

I must say, I'm personally pretty miffed they closed session instead of trying to solve this issue, but then again, I'm no fan of the Conservatives.  I'm just not happy to know they'll be postponing any action on economic issues for 7 weeks at a time when it is pretty crucial to act.  And they're doing it all for their own personal political reasons, without it being in the public's best interest.  Given that they brought on their demise by proposing a lot of policies that go against a lot of what Canadians seem to stand for, it ticks me off for sure.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on December 05, 2008, 11:19:09 AM
I actually just found this (http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN0544124120081205) in my RSS feed. I don't know if there's a particular conservative bent to either the article or the poll, but I was surprised that more people would now vote for the Conservatives than did in the election. I guess I expected more people to share your views, Morning Angel. I'll be interested to see what my sister and brother-in-law have to say about it when I'm talking to them over the holidays (my sis has lived there for 17 years, and my bro-in-law is Canadian).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on December 07, 2008, 10:26:05 PM
If you're interested to know more about the coalition government, one of the independent newspapers in Toronto, NOW Magazine, has a whole section on the topic. (http://www.nowtoronto.com/coalition/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on December 07, 2008, 10:59:16 PM
But if everyone in Canada knows each other, are elections necessary?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: carl on December 08, 2008, 01:37:21 AM
It's more a formality, Swedge. Technically we're an anarco-sydicalist commune.

I had an interesting conversation over the phone with my staunchly conservative mother over this today. She couldn't believe that the GG prorouged, but really, what were her options to avoid chaos? (I am semi-pro coalition). My mother also said, in response to me saying that 62% of the country didn't vote for Harper/the Conservatives by saying that 74% didn't vote for Dion, 82% didn't vote for Layton, and 90% didn't vote for the Bloc, therefore 246% didn't vote for the coalition.

Which is so Conservative of her to say. The Greens won almost 7%, thank you very much!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on December 08, 2008, 03:02:28 AM
It's more a formality, Swedge. Technically we're an anarco-sydicalist commune.

 laughingicon

Props for a Monty Python reference.

...strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on December 08, 2008, 06:21:51 AM
You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you.

And thanks for that link, MA.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on December 08, 2008, 10:30:37 AM
The Supremes have turned down hearing the case of Obama's elegibility.
Quote

The Supreme Court has turned down an emergency appeal from a New Jersey man who says President-elect Barack Obama is ineligible to be president because he was a British subject at birth.


Some information was included in the article that was news to me.
Quote

Donofrio also contends that two other candidates, Republican John McCain and Socialist Workers candidate Roger Calero, also are not natural-born citizens and thus ineligible to be president.

source (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28111773)

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on December 08, 2008, 02:46:40 PM
Yeah, McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone while his father was stationed there. He was born on an American military base to American citizens, but since no one knows what the writers of the Constitution meant by "natural born citizen", some people question whether McCain was born an American citizen.

It's not a new question. People have been puzzling over that "natural born citizen" question since it was written. My mother flew back to the United States from Europe when she was pregnant with me, just to make sure I would be born on US soil. She and my father were both American citizens, but didn't want there to be any question of my citizenship. Alas, I disappointed them both by not running for President.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on December 08, 2008, 05:34:11 PM
I guess I didn't make myself clear. I had heard about the flap concerning McCain birthplace, but I hadn't realized that Donofrio had included McCain in his petition to the Supremes.

As to your mom flying back to the US for your birth, I thought the laws were pretty clear that US citizens give birth to l'il US citizens.

You can still reverse your parents disappointment. It's never too late to run for Prez, NEJ.  ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on December 09, 2008, 02:41:46 PM
So, really, I'm pretty sure Canada is screwed over, it just keeps getting crazier up there it seems.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on December 09, 2008, 02:59:09 PM
It's always been crazy up there. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFEUy8NzazE)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on December 09, 2008, 03:16:01 PM
I am SO glad people were willing to turn in this douche bag!

Quote
Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich told aides he had something “f-ing golden” – sole power to pick Barack Obama’s Senate successor – to barter for a key White House post or a lucrative outside job for himself, and he sought to auction off the seat to the highest bidder, federal prosecutors allege in a sweeping complaint against the Democratic governor (http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/16348).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on December 10, 2008, 09:06:39 PM
"I have a hard time pronouncing his name. I just call him the idiot," - David Gergen
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on December 10, 2008, 09:13:08 PM
As a resident of Illinois, and as someone who still can't believe he was re-elected once already (obviously, he bought that, too), I am thrilled by the events of the last couple days. "The idiot" is an embarrassment to all of us and I hope that he resigns ASAP.

(It's frightening how angry I get reading some of those expletive-laden quotes. I mean, the (expletive) balls on that guy! Seriously. Uggg. What. A. Tool.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on December 11, 2008, 12:42:09 AM
"I have a hard time pronouncing his name. I just call him the idiot," - David Gergen

LOL  Colbert was mentioning it was his birthday today.  I'm so glad to share a birthday with such a disgusting guy.  Seriously, he tried to bribe a hospital and threatened to withhold their funding.  Oy.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on December 11, 2008, 11:00:23 AM
This is kind of an overlap between politics and religion (my favorite kind!), but I absolutely love everything this article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653/page/1) chooses to be. I hear it's causing all kinds of uproar, but I haven't seen it posted here, yet. Did I miss it?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ms.Tina on December 11, 2008, 02:49:32 PM
This is kind of an overlap between politics and religion (my favorite kind!), but I absolutely love everything this article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653/page/1) chooses to be. I hear it's causing all kinds of uproar, but I haven't seen it posted here, yet. Did I miss it?


Thanks for the link, Wendolf! Excellent article.

That just gives me more ammunition for my arguments with my ultra-conservative, republican, Catholic  relatives who seem to think that Gays are ruining things for "normal" people. I'm ashamed to be related to them. Morons.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on December 11, 2008, 03:07:37 PM
You're welcome, Ms.Tina! It's just nice to see a different religious point of view about homosexuality for a change. So often, where religion and homosexuality is concerned, it feels like a one-side debate. I loved that this article looked at it through another Biblical lens.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on December 11, 2008, 08:45:11 PM
This is kind of an overlap between politics and religion (my favorite kind!), but I absolutely love everything this article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653/page/1) chooses to be. I hear it's causing all kinds of uproar, but I haven't seen it posted here, yet. Did I miss it?

I'm not best pleased with his cavlier dismissal of Judaism's continuing adherence to the Hebrew Bible, with quotes like

Quote
Most of us no longer heed Leviticus on haircuts or blood sacrifices; our modern understanding of the world has surpassed its prescriptions.

Jews' understanding of the world is still shaped by the Torah, which includes Leviticus. We struggle with it, of course (the meaning of the word "Israel" in Hebrew is "he wrestles"), but we don't disregard it entirely. We may redefine it, argue with it, outright reject it, but we have not "surpassed" it. And in any case, the Bible has many, many, many lines in it about helping the poor, supporting the widow and orphan, and welcoming the stranger, far more than two measly lines about homosexuality. If fundamentalists really cared about fulfilling the word of God, they'd be too busy working at soup kitchens and homeless shelters to worry about who is dallying with whom.

I do like that the author says what I've been saying for years: we should not be licensing religious officiants to perform marriages sanctioned by the state. What we get is rabbis and ministers and priests refusing to perform a state function for all kinds of reasons that are not part of the state's business. Catholic priests can refuse to marry divorced persons; rabbis often refuse to marry non-Jews to Jews, and so forth. The state has no more business allowing these folks to dictate who shall be married than it has in telling Christians who may or may not baptised, or telling Jews they cannot circumcise their sons. In short, it's not the business of the religious community to define marriage outside its community, and it's not the business of the state to define who does and does not meet the criteria for a religious ceremony. We need to separate church and state completely when it comes to marriage. That's how it's done in Mexico and Europe: you get married in a civil ceremony at the registry office, then hie down to the church/synagogue/whatever for the all-out religious ceremony.

I am glad to read an article at last that takes the liberal religious viewpoint. Thanks for posting the link.

I find it notable that the volume (or tone) of comments on this article has prompted them to suspend the commenting feature. Hah. Can't take the heat...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on December 11, 2008, 08:57:08 PM
NEJ, I agree with your issue with the use of "surpassed." I have the same problem with referring to myself as a "progressive" Christian. There is something slightly judgemental and linear about those terms. And even though it might feel that way sometimes (I was a more traditional Christian before I came to where I am now ... not traditional AT ALL .. which implies a progression), I think the use of those terms has an "I'm up here, you're down there" feeling. I don't like when Evangelical Christians do that to me, so I certainly don't want to do that to them (or anyone else). But it was interesting to see an article from a major publication (website) supporting homosexuality from a different religious perspective. It's so rare ... usually it's a very secular viewpoint that supports homosexuals, which is really unfortunate considering who Jesus was and what he preached.

But I'm getting away from politics. On topic: I agree. Separation of church and state is essential. In lots of issues, not just gay marriage.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on December 15, 2008, 08:10:43 AM
Quote
an Iraqi journalist who shouted in Arabic — “This is a gift from the Iraqis; this is the farewell kiss, you dog” — and threw one of his shoes at the president, who ducked and narrowly avoided being struck.

As chaos ensued, he threw his other shoe, shouting, “This is from the widows, the orphans and those who were killed in Iraq.”

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on December 15, 2008, 08:14:37 AM
I feel sorry for him about that, that is just rude. Bush made a lot of decisions I am not happy with. I personally dislike him and his policies. But to be that rude to him, especially to his face :(.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on December 15, 2008, 08:19:50 AM
GWB>Neo
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on December 15, 2008, 03:24:40 PM
GWB>Neo

 ???
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on December 15, 2008, 03:30:44 PM
I was making a joke about the movie The Matrix.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/zerohhero/12-15-20083-28-54PM.png)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on December 15, 2008, 03:59:45 PM
I applaud the guy's guts - to do that in front of all that security and when you know he'd have been practically strip searched to be allowed into the room! Who knows what treatment he'd have received after this? As for being rude - I think when atleast 90,000 of your country folk (by conservative estimates) have died in the past 5 years due to the actions of that man you get past caring about etiquette. So much for the "they're happy to be liberated" meme.

Having said that I was impressed by how well Bush ducked those shoes. Quick reflexes Mr.President! :D

Also a bit surprised by how slow the Secret Service was - shouldn't one of those guys have jumped in front of Bush when the first shoe was flying across the room? Or maybe the second one? The guy was surrounded by people yet seemingly had all the time in the world to attack the President. Yeah it's just a shoe but in theory it could injure the President pretty badly. Why were they so bad at dealing with the situation? Jack Bauer would not be impressed!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on December 15, 2008, 04:37:05 PM
Also a bit surprised by how slow the Secret Service was - shouldn't one of those guys have jumped in front of Bush when the first shoe was flying across the room? Or maybe the second one? The guy was surrounded by people yet seemingly had all the time in the world to attack the President. Yeah it's just a shoe but in theory it could injure the President pretty badly. Why were they so bad at dealing with the situation? Jack Bauer would not be impressed!
I agree, Ash! They all just kind of stood there! I thought their reflexes should have been a little quicker, considering where they were and who the audience was. Seemed like fellow Iraqis in the crowd were faster on the reflexes than the Secret Service agents were...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on December 15, 2008, 08:02:14 PM
I was making a joke about the movie The Matrix.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/zerohhero/12-15-20083-28-54PM.png)

Oh, man, that is funny! I get it. Well done, zh.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: qwerty on December 15, 2008, 09:34:44 PM
It was only a matter of time before someone made animated gifs of the event... (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/12/15/iraq-shoe-tosser-guy.html)

and created a videogame (http://blog.zanorg.com/index.php?perm=370)

ETA. I was stupid and copied the link twice. It's fixed now.  :-[
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on December 16, 2008, 12:22:27 AM
It was only a matter of time before someone made animated gifs of the event... (http://blog.zanorg.com/index.php?perm=370)

and created a videogame (http://blog.zanorg.com/index.php?perm=370)

 laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon laughingicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on December 17, 2008, 06:49:37 PM
Because I loved this: Barack Obama defeats Barack Hussein Obama (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/barack_obama_defeats_barack?utm_source=onion_rss_daily).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on December 19, 2008, 10:10:40 AM
I can't believe Bush slid this under the radar - right of conscience (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/18/provider.conscience/).

Quote
The new rule, they claim, goes further by specifying that all health-care workers -- from doctors to hospital janitors -- may refuse to provide services, information or advice to patients based on their moral objections. Those objections, critics say, could cover anything from abortions to fertility treatments to stem-cell research.

On the Rachel Maddow show last night, she said that Obama is aware of it and will try to reverse it once he's in office, but that it may take a while before he's able to finally get rid of it.

 >:(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on December 19, 2008, 11:25:27 AM
Are you serious!? OMG, that's scary.

Quote
"This regulation explicitly allows that doctor, that nurse or any other health care provider to withhold information from a patient trying to make a medical decision"
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on December 19, 2008, 01:00:54 PM
On the RM show last night, she said that it wasn't just abortion and birth control pills that she was worried about. If a homosexual patient with AIDS tried to get medicine, the pharmacist could also refuse to sell them the drugs.  >:(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on December 19, 2008, 03:57:34 PM
IL Gov. Blago pledges to fight (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081219/ap_on_re_us/illinois_governor)

Quote
In an unwavering statement of innocence, Gov. Rod Blagojevich said Friday he will be vindicated of criminal corruption charges and has no intention of letting what he called a "political lynch mob" force him from his job.

"I will fight. I will fight. I will fight until I take my last breath. I have done nothing wrong," Blagojevich said

I can't wait to see this fight come down. It should be on pay per view. ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on January 06, 2009, 11:47:31 PM

Here's an amazing vid of all 44 US Presidents (http://www.flixxy.com/presidents-morphing.htm) morphing from one into the other in about four minutes.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on January 21, 2009, 05:54:05 AM
downloadable copy of Obama's inauguration (http://www.sendspace.com/file/v3woss)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on January 21, 2009, 08:09:40 AM
I'm not sure I understand why there are so many balls. It seems to me that during a bad economy, that it's wasteful and gluttonous to throw so many parties. Is there some significance to having so many instead of just one big one? Does anyone know if these were privately funded or if they were used with public funds?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on January 21, 2009, 09:57:27 AM
I think I heard yesterday that it's a lot of private funding, but not all of it of course.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on January 21, 2009, 11:33:37 AM
It looks to me like the Inaugural Balls (http://dc.about.com/od/specialevents/a/inauguralballs.htm) differ by guest list.  A lot of them (all but the neighborhood, commander-in-chief, and youth balls) seem to be grouped by states.  If they had one ball, it would be more difficult to do the guest list; people who were able to go last night because there were multiple balls would be shut out. 

Also, they'd need a bigger venue, and people would be watching the Obamas dance from really far away.  It wouldn't be as enjoyable for anyone.

And that's way more times than anyone should say "ball."  smiley twss
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sora on January 21, 2009, 05:37:12 PM
So, I attend both the concert and the Inauguration ceremony and part of the parade.

I volunteered at the concert so I didn't bring my camera which was a stupid thing that I looked back at it. Originally, I was suppose to be working at the general admission entrance but I moved to the ticketed gate instead. Now, I've read that lots of people were upset that there was a ticketed section and also asked how a free and open concert had tickets. Well, it's the same as the actual Inauguration; the section is for VIPs, celebrities, donors, and the regular people, who people got tickets from their workplace, from their Representatives and Senators, and the list goes on. So, yes, while there were some rich VIPs in the ticketed section, a majority of them were not. In fact, we turned away a few celebrities. It was kind-of funny, actually.  :D

Anyways, I missed the first 30 minutes of the concert so I didn't see Steve but when I got in, I was able to get a spot on the platform which held the first Jumbotron closest to the Memorial.

(http://x51.xanga.com/70ff0200d5333230479514/w181636606.jpg)
I had my Crackberry so this is my view via the lovely camera on it.


It was great. Seeing over 300,000 people dancing "Shout" in the cold to Garth Brooks was insane. So yeah... awesome.

I wasn't able to volunteer at the Inauguration but my friend and I left my place in NW DC at around 5:15. We decided to take the bus instead of the Metro which was the better idea in the long run, actually. However, we did end up walking from George Washington University (which is close to the Kennedy Center and the Lincoln Memorial) to the Capitol.

(http://x8f.xanga.com/e0ff0300c6433230478412/m181635699.jpg)
The Washington Monument at 5-something in the morning.

The masses at 5:30 in the morning is still large.

(http://x19.xanga.com/b67c850559631230478413/m181635700.jpg)
On our way to the Capitol.

Anyways, it was a fantastic and surreal experience. We didn't have tickets but we were in the first section of the general public section. I attended the last Inauguration and, of course, nothing at all like that one. No protesters. 10000 times more people. More security. And much, much colder.

(http://x2c.xanga.com/a80f171359630230478415/m181635702.jpg)
(http://xb4.xanga.com/1e1f330766432230478419/m181635706.jpg)
The Capitol and the massive crowd behind us.

Unfortunately, the worst thing was trying to get out of the Mall. Because they didn't want people crowding the parade route, they closed off the North side of the Mall so everyone was filtering into the South side of the Mall which leads nowhere, except the Potomac. The lines to the Metro were insane until the police started holding people off. The only way we could get to the North side of the Mall was go around the Capitol which is very far. So, we went up to the Capitol near the beginning of the Parade route because when the President , etc. passes by, they would open the street for people to cross.

(http://xb6.xanga.com/5c4f160036730230478422/m181635708.jpg)
The Capitol after the Inauguration.

Well, because of Sen. Kennedy's seizure, the luncheon was delayed about 45 minutes so it took us finally about 3 hours to get out of the Mall. But we got to see Al Glore and his wife as well as President Carter and his wife leave the Capitol before the motorcade went by.

(http://x96.xanga.com/ebdf1a00d6733230478423/m181635709.jpg)
(http://xe1.xanga.com/e96f120541530230482581/m181639051.jpg)
This is the President's car with the First Lady on this side of the street.

We trekked to Union Station hoping to catch a taxi after seeing the crowds trying to get in for the Metro and the train. A no-go. We started walking down Massachusetts Ave. hoping to get a taxi along the way. Nope. Most of the taxis were on call due to the balls in the area. We walked to Chinatown and decided after not eating anything since five, we needed something so got some din-din. Afterwards, we caught the Metro which wasn't crowded anymore back up to my neighborhood and then a bus to my apartment. So yeah... very tired last night, but very touched to have been there.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Cheeb on January 21, 2009, 06:57:54 PM
Those are great pics sora.  Thanks for sharing the pics and your experience.  I was wondering how everything went after you'd let us know you'd be volunteering.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on January 21, 2009, 07:44:15 PM
That is awesome sora!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on January 21, 2009, 08:37:23 PM
Pictures of the Inauguration from space.

Spoilered for size
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on January 21, 2009, 08:46:18 PM
Caroline Kennedy reportedly withdraws Senate bid (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090122/ap_on_re_us/caroline_kennedy)

Quote
Citing personal reasons, Kennedy ended her monthlong bid to succeed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on January 21, 2009, 08:51:41 PM
Obama retakes oath at White House (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/21/obama-re-takes-oath-of-office-at-the-white-house/)

 laughingicon Really? He should do this every day. Just to prove how badass he is.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: brokenloon on January 23, 2009, 12:20:17 AM
Kirsten Gillibrand will replace Hillary:

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/557272.html

I was hoping from the beginning she would get the nod, and I think a star is born with this selection.  Great work ethic, really smart, very electable, and for my money she's way hotter than Sarah Palin ever will be.  If I had to pick one person as the most likely first female President, she would be the choice.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on February 05, 2009, 08:35:47 PM
Wow. I have never heard of this woman. Nice to see some qualified folks coming out of the woodwork.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on February 11, 2009, 07:35:38 PM
Want some NSFW Obama mp3s? (http://www.aprilwinchell.com/wp-content/cache/supercache/www.aprilwinchell.com/2009/02/05/barack-obama-is-tired-of-your-motherfucking-shit//index.html)  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on February 11, 2009, 07:43:03 PM
They play some of those during the morning show of a radio station here in LA.  They are always good for a laugh while in traffic. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on February 13, 2009, 08:46:06 PM
Yearbook pics of prominent politicians.  (http://www.vetocorleone.com/2009/02/amazing-yearbook-photos-of-us.html)  It's entertaining!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on February 14, 2009, 11:23:41 AM
Yearbook pics of prominent politicians.  (http://www.vetocorleone.com/2009/02/amazing-yearbook-photos-of-us.html)  It's entertaining!

Thanks for that, Morning Angel. Huckabee was hot (so was Biden, but I'd already seen that picture). I am disturbed by this realization! At least we know Cheney looking like he wants to kill someone isn't a new development... and Blago's hair...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on February 16, 2009, 10:55:40 AM
Why am I not surprised that George W is the only non-clean cut one out of the bunch?  :D  Apparently, Sarah palin has had that crazy look in her eyes for a long time!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on February 16, 2009, 11:03:29 AM

Why am I not surprised that George W is the only non-clean cut one out of the bunch?  :D  Apparently, Sarah palin has had that crazy look in her eyes for a long time!

The site has added a link to a pic of a long-haired Norm Coleman (http://www.vetocorleone.com/2009/02/norm-colemans-yearbook-photo-is-your.html) (Al Franken's MN opponent).  :o
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on February 18, 2009, 11:55:31 AM
very disturbing! ND House Passes Abortion Ban (http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=333726)

Quote
The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.

That means a fetus could not be legally aborted without the procedure being considered murder.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on February 18, 2009, 11:58:43 AM
very disturbing! ND House Passes Abortion Ban (http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=333726)

Quote
The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.

That means a fetus could not be legally aborted without the procedure being considered murder.

Wait . . . What? How is that even legal at the moment to pass? And how are there that many anti-choice reps? I mean, not that all Dems are pro-choice, but this is just strange and sad.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on February 18, 2009, 12:15:50 PM
very disturbing! ND House Passes Abortion Ban (http://www.kxmc.com/getArticle.asp?ArticleId=333726)

Quote
The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.

That means a fetus could not be legally aborted without the procedure being considered murder.

Wait . . . What? How is that even legal at the moment to pass? And how are there that many anti-choice reps? I mean, not that all Dems are pro-choice, but this is just strange and sad.

It's North Dakota--pretty conservative state.  Is it North or South Dakota that's tried to pass anti-abortion laws with no exceptions over the last few years? I thought it was South Dakota, but the demographics of both states are pretty similar I think. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on February 18, 2009, 12:16:54 PM
There was obviously an ulterior motive for the bill and that was to challenge Roe v. Wade --

Quote
(Rep. Kari Conrad, -D- Minot) "People who presented this bill, were very clear that they intended to challenge Roe versus Wade. So they intend to put the state of North Dakota into court defending Roe vs. Wade"

They passed the bill only so that it can be challenged by someone and taken to the Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on February 18, 2009, 12:18:18 PM
Oh, I thought this was our national House (though I was confused as to why only 92 votes were cast). Still ridiculous, but it now makes more sense.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: brokenloon on February 18, 2009, 02:31:39 PM
What an awful job of legislating by North Dakota.  A legislative declaration about a complex philosophical question is asinine on the face of it, and the fact that the whole thing is a contrivance to intentionally create a court case...uggh.  Just bad stuff whatever your position on abortion issue is.  Apparently the legislation now goes to the North Dakota Senate, who perhaps will show better judgment.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on February 19, 2009, 03:42:27 PM
President Obama is in Ottawa today.  It's been all day coverage on TV, and there was a huge crowd on Parliament Hill just to see him.  It was so funny because one journalist said,  "It seems a much more positive visit for a US President.  Last time President Bush was here, there was tons of protesters and tear gas had to be used." What an understatement.

I just watched the press conference, and I will say that it appears Canada and the U.S. are both awesome and it's all a lovefest.  Good to know. ;)

Somehow, President Obama seems to be able to get Prime Minister Harper to make way on environmental issues.  Consider me shocked since Harper is terrible on the environmental front.  I guess we'll have to see what happens.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: macolly on February 19, 2009, 04:21:03 PM
This may intrest some of you, it goes back to the who Catholic Church versus the Pro-Choicers issues we were talking about a few months ago.

Here (http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/articles/2009/02/19/news/sc_times_trib.20090219.a.pg1.tt19stpatrick_s2.2315427_top2.txt) is how Scranton's Bishop is continuing to turn people away from the church.

It's really sad.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on February 20, 2009, 07:27:23 PM
As someone who lives in a western state, in a rather sprawling city without a lot of public transportation, I'm glad Obama has said no to this idea. 

Obama nixes plan to tax motorists on mileage (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090220/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/lahood_vehicle_mileage_tax)

I think the Beatles said it best:

"If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet"

:D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sora on February 24, 2009, 01:37:01 PM
Presidential Bingo (http://presidentialbingo.com/) for the SOTU Address tonight.

(http://bestsmileys.com/usa1/19.gif)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dm on February 25, 2009, 11:23:17 AM
Transcript for President Obama's Speech last night (http://news2buzz.com/news/barack-obama-speech-feb-24-presidential-address-to-congress/#more-16)

I missed the speech but just read it and I can even hear his inflections in my head. :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: carl on March 06, 2009, 08:01:14 AM
Big news for Ontario would-be PC leader John Tory: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/03/05/tory-byelection.html (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/03/05/tory-byelection.html)

I mean, it's really not surprising, given his record of not winning seats. I'm not going to lie though, I feel a little gloaty because Kawartha Lakes-Brock-Haliburton is my home riding, and I am most definitely not conservative (and my parents are!)  >:D

I do feel bad though; the MPP we actually elected, Laurie Scott, was wonderful, and now it appears she resigned for nothing.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on March 24, 2009, 12:03:56 AM
Following are some excerpts from an email I received late this afternoon from an organization working for marriage equality:

Quote
Just moments ago, the Vermont State Senate voted with overwhelming support to pass S.115 - the bill to legalize same-sex marriage in Vermont. 26 Senators (out of 30) cast their vote in support of marriage equality.  This is a monumental victory for Vermont and for LGBT equality.

Quote
The Senate took up the bill today after the Senate Judiciary Committee voted unanimously, 5-0, to support the bill last Friday.

Thanks to the hard work of The Vermont Freedom to Marry Task Force, this critical step has been reached.  Next, the bill will advance to the House of Representatives where a vote is likely to happen next week.  While we are confident in its passage, we still need to assist [them] to pass this bill.  After that, the bill will be enacted into law, absent a veto from the Governor. Once that happens, Vermont will be the first state to recognize marriage equality through direct legislative initiative.

Since we discussed California's vote at length in this thread, I thought I'd pass this information on.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on March 24, 2009, 12:07:29 AM
Good for Vermont!  grouphugicon

I hope it passes. I just watched Milk again yesterday and ugh, it made me even more angry about the whole Prop 8 thing.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on March 24, 2009, 12:10:34 AM
Wow - that's awesome!  Thanks for posting, TLK.  What strikes me the most is the count of the votes, which show that there was a clear majority in the decision - hopefully that will help to defend this bill should it be disputed. 

Go Vermont!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on March 24, 2009, 12:44:08 AM
Yay Vermont! Good for them. Sometimes I'm hopeful that we're moving in the right direction.  ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on April 04, 2009, 03:10:23 AM
From another email on the status of marriage equality:

Quote
Today, Iowa's Supreme Court issued a unanimous decision in support of marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples. This is a monumental victory for Iowa and LGBT equality. However, in Vermont, marriage equality is facing a major challenge from Governor Douglas.

The Vermont House voted with overwhelming support (95-52) last night to pass a marriage equality bill. Now, Governor Douglas is set to veto the bill.

Go, Iowa!  Go away, Governor Douglas!  ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on April 07, 2009, 05:54:15 PM
This one made the iGoogle news: Vermont Legislature OKs Gay Marriage (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102851810&ft=1&f=1001).  (They overturned the Governor's veto.)

There are now four states with marriage equality --  four down, 46 to go?  Map (http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gaymarriage/map/).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EverybodyHurts on April 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
I was so psyched to hear that today, TLK.  I high-fived one of my nurse friends who was one of the first in MA to marry her partner when we legalized gay marriage.  Yay for progress.  partyhaticon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on April 28, 2009, 12:11:05 PM
Holy crap! 
It's being reported that Arlen Spector (R-Penn) is switching parties.  partyhaticon  If Franken ultimately is seated as the senator from Minnesota, that gives the Senate Dems a filibuster-proof majority.

source (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/04/28/specter_to_switch_parties.html?wprss=44)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: brokenloon on April 28, 2009, 12:29:33 PM
Holy crap! 
It's being reported that Arlen Spector (R-Penn) is switching parties.  partyhaticon  If Franken ultimately is seated as the senator from Minnesota, that gives the Senate Dems a filibuster-proof majority.

source (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/04/28/specter_to_switch_parties.html?wprss=44)

Big news indeed, and it's really a question of when, not if, Franken is seated (Coleman's legal challenges are meritless and clearly just a delaying tactic). 

I'm sure the right will vigorously savage Senator Specter.  He was doomed to lose the GOP primary; there is little room in the Republican party these days for anyone who isn't an ideologue.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on April 30, 2009, 01:37:22 AM
A lot of states seem to be falling in line on marriage equality.  These quotes again are from emails I've received on this subject from a group fighting for marriage equality all over:

Quote
The New Hampshire Senate voted to pass HB 436 -- the marriage equality bill, which would replace the separate and unequal civil union system with full marriage equality.

The amended Senate bill must be reconciled with the House version before it goes to Gov. John Lynch.  The Governor does not have to sign the bill for it to become law.

Quote
Yesterday, the Maine judiciary committee voted 11-3 that the marriage bill "ought to pass without amendment."  The bill will now go to the Maine House and Senate for a full vote.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on June 04, 2009, 01:40:19 AM
So it's official:

The New Hampshire Governor, John Lynch, signed the marriage equality bill.  NH is the sixth state to recognize equal marriage rights, joining Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont and Maine.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: norsk_heksen on June 04, 2009, 06:06:04 AM
So it's official:

The New Hampshire Governor, John Lynch, signed the marriage equality bill.  NH is the sixth state to recognize equal marriage rights, joining Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont and Maine.



 grouphugicon

YAY! C'mon America, you can do it! Keep going!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on June 04, 2009, 10:22:47 AM
Only 44 more states to go. ;)  Progress isn't always speedy, but it's better than the alternative.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: wendolf on June 04, 2009, 10:32:41 AM
Yay New Hampshire! cheersicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on June 04, 2009, 10:53:01 AM
Congratulations NH!  bighugsicon

(Here in liberal CA we suck!)

My husband and I were talking about this yesterday and came to the conclusion that hopefully by the time our children are adults all states will recognize equal marriage rights, and then they will look back and say "What was the big deal?"
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: notatoy on June 04, 2009, 02:57:33 PM
That's pretty darn cool for New Hampshire.  This has me thinking though (always dangerous) - Now that some states in the US recognize gay marriage, what other countries do as well?  I believe it is legal in the Netherlands and Canada (?) but where else?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: zerohhero on June 04, 2009, 03:00:24 PM
Quote from: wikipedia
The Netherlands was the first modern nation to legalize same-sex marriage in 2001. Same-sex marriages are also legal in Belgium (2003), Spain (2005), Canada (2005), South Africa (2006), Norway (2009), and Sweden (2009).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on June 04, 2009, 03:29:04 PM
I'm so glad that gay marriage is legal here in Norway, and I'm really proud of our government who has been working for this for years. Civil unions were legalized in 1993, and I remember that very clearly because my math teacher entered into a civil union with his boyfriend that same year. It was so sweet. Even our former finance minister did it years ago, and nobody cared. He had a partner; that was it. No big deal. Bear in mind that he is a member of the conservative party, and the country has a state church. If a country with a state church can legalize gay marriage, why can't the United States?

Personally, I'm baffled by certain statements made by the religious right in the US in regards to gay marriage. I remember Bill Bennett talking about gay marriage on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart a couple of years ago, and he used Norway as an example of what gay marriage could do to a country. "The society was deteriorating, it was terrible, etc." Really, Mr. Bennett? I think the country is doing pretty okay.  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on June 04, 2009, 04:28:53 PM
Go New Hampshire.

Yeah, I was so proud of Canada too.  However, it was passed under the Liberal government in 2005; the Conservative government at the moment would never let something like through now, which is depressing to me. :( 

I'm especially proud of the leadership of Quebec in that matter.  Quebec went from being a province basically governed by the Catholic Church until the 1950s to throwing out religion from government business and becoming a progressive province concerned with social justice and equality.  We definitely have plenty of faults, but that's something we've done right, I think. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Jamnicity on June 04, 2009, 04:42:13 PM
Way to go NH!! cheersicon I know the rest of the US will get there one of these days, hopefully sooner than later.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: beanyb on June 04, 2009, 05:40:34 PM
Civil unions were legalized in 1993, and I remember that very clearly because my math teacher entered into a civil union with his boyfriend that same year.

Wow, 1993. That was really ahead of the pack anyway! My backward little country (Ireland), was only decriminalising homosexuality at that stage. It might be a while until we wake up and allow civil unions, let alone fully fledged marriage. We like to think we're a really sophisticated liberal nation, but we just arent. It makes me sad.

Great to see another state legalising it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Annabel Winslow on June 04, 2009, 05:45:53 PM
Yeah, I was so proud of Canada too.  However, it was passed under the Liberal government in 2005; the Conservative government at the moment would never let something like through now, which is depressing to me. :( 

Sad but true.  The Harper government would probably re-open this issue if they thought they could get any traction on it.  If same-sex marriage hadn't been legalized by the time they came to power, nothing would have been done.

I always forget that you are a fellow Canadian, MA.   bighugsicon

Yay, New Hampshire!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on June 04, 2009, 05:56:10 PM
Wow, 1993. That was really ahead of the pack anyway! My backward little country (Ireland), was only decriminalising homosexuality at that stage. It might be a while until we wake up and allow civil unions, let alone fully fledged marriage. We like to think we're a really sophisticated liberal nation, but we just arent. It makes me sad.

I firmly believe that the rest of Europe will do what's right and legalize civil unions and even same-sex marriage in the near future. Has it been an issue in Ireland recently, what with the states in the US legalizing it, and do you think the EU might be able to sway the conservatives in your country?

There's one conservative Christian party in my country that isn't too pleased about the new law legalizing gay marriage, but the party is so tiny and insignificant that they would never get enough support in the parliament, so the law is here to stay.

By the way, kudos to Iowa, Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Connecticut and Maine! Hopefully, the rest of the US will follow.  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: beanyb on June 04, 2009, 06:21:26 PM
It has been an issue. There has been plenty of discussion about it for the past couple of years. And there has even been talk of the government introducing civil unions. I just dont see it happening anytime soon. And I personally believe that civil unions arent enough.

The EU is an interesting point. It was the European Court of Human Rights that made us finally repeal the law against homosexuality itself. But as a country we have some serious issues with the whole concept of the EU right now (stupidly IMO). So I wouldnt be surprised if conservatives got even more determined to fight gay marriage if the EU tried to make us legalise it.

I think we'll catch up eventually, and as Alamos said I believe future generations wont understand what the big deal was with legalising gay marriage. It's just a matter of how long it will take.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: spencer_0123 on June 04, 2009, 06:32:52 PM
Such great news. WTG New Hampshire!

Yeah, I was so proud of Canada too.  However, it was passed under the Liberal government in 2005; the Conservative government at the moment would never let something like through now, which is depressing to me. :( 
Sad but true.  The Harper government would probably re-open this issue if they thought they could get any traction on it.  If same-sex marriage hadn't been legalized by the time they came to power, nothing would have been done.

I seem to remember the Harper government trying to re-open the issue when they came to power. They were pushing for a national vote on whether or no restore the "traditional" definition of marriage, but couldn't get enough support to even get it to that point. I like to think that even if the Act hadn't been secured with the Liberals, it still would have happened under Harper. Clearly not with Harper's support, but that's one of the great things about a minority government- they don't always get what they want :D.

I'm not too familiar with US law, so I'm just curious, at what point does the federal government actually step in on this issue? In Canada it took almost all of the provinces and territories enacting marriage equality laws, and a supreme court ruling that it was unconstitutional to not legalize same-sex marriage. It was at that point that the federal government stepped up and changed the actual definition of marriage. I have a feeling it's similar in the US, which means it's going to be quite a lengthy process  :-\.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on June 04, 2009, 06:40:03 PM
I'm not too familiar with US law, so I'm just curious, at what point does the federal government actually step in on this issue? In Canada it took almost all of the provinces and territories enacting marriage equality laws, and a supreme court ruling that it was unconstitutional to not legalize same-sex marriage. It was at that point that the federal government stepped up and changed the actual definition of marriage. I have a feeling it's similar in the US, which means it's going to be quite a lengthy process  :-\.

I expect it will follow roughly the same pace here. As a rule, the federal government lets the states do what they want with this sort of thing. If it becomes legal in enough states, and public opinion is overwhelmingly turned in favor of legalizing gay marriage, then the Supreme Court will take a look at it and decide if it's constitutional or not for laws to be passed that make it legal. Or illegal.  At least, that's what I think will happen. I'm no lawyer.

I think that, overall, public opinion becomes more and more inclusive and tolerant over time, but there are a lot of conservatives in this country. A lot. Of conservatives. I'll be surprised, particularly after what happened in California--a state I'd always thought of as extremely liberal--if anything changes on the national level for at least another ten years.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on June 04, 2009, 06:44:54 PM
I think that, overall, public opinion becomes more and more inclusive and tolerant over time, but there are a lot of conservatives in this country. A lot. Of conservatives. I'll be surprised, particularly after what happened in California--a state I'd always thought of as extremely liberal--if anything changes on the national level for at least another ten years.

I agree with this. Iowa was pretty cool. I certainly never expected Iowa to okay gay marriage, especially ahead of "liberal" states like California and New York. That felt like a good omen. But if it can't pass in California (and what drug were those judges on when they didn't overturn prop 8, seriously?), it is really going to pass in, say, Mississippi? Alabama? Arkansas? Texas? Um, no. Hell, Michigan, my beloved blue-state Michigan, voted in 2006 to amend the state constitution to say gay marriage was not allowed.

The progress being made right now is awesome but it's going to be years and years before it's legal country wide. (And what a waste of time waiting! Seriously, don't people realize that you can't halt progress? That eventually we move forward with issues of civil rights? Now or later, it's still going to happen. Why not just get it over with so we stop looking so damn backwards?)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: norsk_heksen on June 05, 2009, 02:28:44 AM
The progress being made right now is awesome but it's going to be years and years before it's legal country wide. (And what a waste of time waiting! Seriously, don't people realize that you can't halt progress? That eventually we move forward with issues of civil rights? Now or later, it's still going to happen. Why not just get it over with so we stop looking so damn backwards?)

Ugh, I feel exactly the same way! I just don't get why it's even an issue that people are actually debating. I can respect a lot of different opinions -- e.g. I'm pro-choice, but I can understand why someone would be pro-life and be sympathetic to their POV -- but this is one thing I just cannot fathom anyone being against for any legitimate reason at all. We have some big talk in the U.S. about how far we've come since the Jim Crow era, but really? It's the same attitude, the same ignorance, fear, and paranoia, the same disgusting disrespect for fellow human beings. It makes me so angry that these kinds of people have so much power over others in the U.S.

And... one more reason on the long list of reasons why Norway is made of AWESOME! bighugsicon
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on June 05, 2009, 03:22:23 AM
and what drug were those judges on when they didn't overturn prop 8, seriously?
The issue with the judges was not whether or not they agree with Prop 8.  The issue was its legality.  In which case, they did the only thing they really could.  And this comes from someone who is vehemently against Prop 8 but who also refuses to vilify the judges who, least we forget, claimed gay marriage was legal in California a year ago.  That Prop 8 passed is not the court's fault; it's the voters.   

California has a very weird, complex Constitution.  It's one of the longest ever, too, because of our system of ballot propositions being voted on by voters. 

Ultimately, the judges decided that Prop 8 had changed the Constitution of the State and the court's job is not to alter the Constitution, but to interpret it.

Now, the good thing is that, in 2010, the issue will be back on the ballot and California can overturn Prop 8.  I believe we will do it and I plan to do my part to make sure it happens.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on June 05, 2009, 05:36:17 AM
I totally agree with you cdgeiger. It would have set a very dangerous precedent for the judiciary to overturn a measure that was passed by the voters. The issue really is that got on the ballot in the first place - in my mind this is an example of why direct democracy i.e referendums, votes on single issues are rarely a good idea.

Direct democracy leads to very polarised opinions, rash decisions, people going with their heart more often than their head. With representative democracy, theoretically at least the elected official has a duty to take the time to look at all the facts, opinions etc. and come to an informed decision. It doesn't always work and sure politicians have personal opinions too but generally it is far safer.

With hot button issues like abortion, the death penalty etc. this is particularly the case - in the UK the death penalty was abolished over 40 years ago but every time there is some gruesome murder that catches the public attention some newspapers will bring up the issue and in terms of polling a majority of the public are in favour of bringing it back - they are understandably emotional. It will never be brought back though because it is not something that would be put to a vote and Parliament would never repeal the law. It may seem like this is undemocratic but in reality the point of a civilised democracy is for the majority opinion to not be able to dictate policy where issues of civil liberties and fairness are concerned.

With gay marriage specifically I'm of the opinion that it's something that will naturally come about as the older generation dies off - progressive change takes time but it will filter through. And I think it'd be far better to ensure civil unions are available to everyone rather than pushing the conservatives to further harden their positions (which leads to more extreme young conservatives) by wanting radical change overnight. It doesn't seem to be as explosive an issue anywhere else in the world which is telling...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on June 05, 2009, 07:12:31 AM
and what drug were those judges on when they didn't overturn prop 8, seriously?
The issue with the judges was not whether or not they agree with Prop 8.  The issue was its legality.  In which case, they did the only thing they really could.  And this comes from someone who is vehemently against Prop 8 but who also refuses to vilify the judges who, least we forget, claimed gay marriage was legal in California a year ago.  That Prop 8 passed is not the court's fault; it's the voters.   

California has a very weird, complex Constitution.  It's one of the longest ever, too, because of our system of ballot propositions being voted on by voters. 

Ultimately, the judges decided that Prop 8 had changed the Constitution of the State and the court's job is not to alter the Constitution, but to interpret it.

Now, the good thing is that, in 2010, the issue will be back on the ballot and California can overturn Prop 8.  I believe we will do it and I plan to do my part to make sure it happens.

I'm sorry, I worded that incorrectly so it didn't quite encode what I was trying to say. I definitely know judges interpret the constitution. They don't "vote" on things. I'm shocked that the California constitution, as interpreted by the CA SCJ didn't automatically put prop 8 in the dust bin. I'm shocked that a proposition that denies civil rights could ever be accepted by a state constitution, especially in a state that is as liberal as California is "supposed" to be. (Sometimes I have a huge gap between what's in my brain and what comes out in my fingers, you know? It isn't pretty.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on June 05, 2009, 12:28:56 PM
I understand where you're coming from.  The truth is, though, California is only liberal in certain spots.  It's a big state with a ton of people and you'd be surprised what happens when you go an hour outside of Los Angeles or San Francisco. 

Now, we're obviously a blue state and went more blue this year than perhaps ever before.  But the middle of the state is red and most of the area south of Los Angeles county is generally red.  The blue areas of the state just happened to be more populated.  Look at this map from 2004:  http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/.  And Kerry won!  The map from 2008 is a whole lot different.  The entire coast, for instance, is blue (with the exception of Orange County which Obama only lost by a small margin). 

Given that, it didn't surprise me, really, that Prop 8 passed.  I was disappointed but I wasn't shocked.  I do agree that it never should've been put on the ballot in the first place but, hey, now that the issue can be, we've got to work it in our favor.

The No on Prop 8 campaign made a ton of mistakes.  One of the biggest blunders was, I think, not using then candidate Obama's letter of support.  That was just stupid, given that polling had him 20 points ahead of McCain.  They, unlike me, didn't expect Californians to go for Prop 8.  Like Ash86 said, direct democracy leads to thinking with your heart instead of head and the No on Prop 8 campaign just didn't think that would happen.  Honestly, I don't know what was going on there besides mistake after mistake after mistake.  There was only organization AFTER the election.  Which is not the right time.

Quote
With gay marriage specifically I'm of the opinion that it's something that will naturally come about as the older generation dies off - progressive change takes time but it will filter through. And I think it'd be far better to ensure civil unions are available to everyone rather than pushing the conservatives to further harden their positions (which leads to more extreme young conservatives) by wanting radical change overnight. It doesn't seem to be as explosive an issue anywhere else in the world which is telling...
I just wanted to say that I totally agree with this.  You cannot stop progress.  It's kind of like my generation of Americans looks back at the civil rights movement and goes "How in the world could you NOT give African Americans equal rights?"  Blah blah blah Plessy v. Ferguson.  Whatever.  It still doesn't make any sense.  After all, we have Barack Obama as our president now. 

I feel like, when gay marriage exists country wide, our kids and grandkids are going to look back at this and say "What's the big deal?  Why in the world were you people against this?"
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Replemishment on June 05, 2009, 02:36:08 PM
Quote
California has a very weird, complex Constitution.  It's one of the longest ever, too, because of our system of ballot propositions being voted on by voters.
ITA cdgeiger, Ash86, and MojoPin!  The CA proposition system is a huge drain on the effectiveness of our state.  Prop 8 had no business being put before the voters as a civil rights issue, and neither do a lot of the ballot props of late.  The budget props from May mostly failed because the voters of CA are so sick of the crappy budget situation our legislators perpetuate every year.  The Republican minority only has power at all because the budget has to be passed by a margin of 2/3s (one of the few states to do this), and they point-blank refuse to allow any tax hikes to increase revenue for the state.  So the stalemate is inevitable, and holds up the budget longer every year.  The state college system in particular is held hostage.  Classes and programs have to be cut across the board, while fees and tuition get raised to make up the difference.  My fees are increasing by $300 for fall, which is a lot considering total tuition and fees was only $1881 last semester.  Bah.  Richy McRicherson doesn't get an income tax hike, and college students everywhere pay more for less substance.  /end rant.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on June 05, 2009, 03:03:11 PM
I've been reading through the many pages of this thread, trying to get a feel for it and just how political it is safe to be here. Great thread. Good debates and differing points of view with respect.
Something that has me very curious is which news channel people watch:
CNN or Fox or another?
Whenever I go to the gym I prefer to "watch" CNN instead of Fox. If Fox is on, I ask every person who is within sight of the tv if they mind if I change the channel. If someone is watching, I won't even ask them but will go to another part of the gym where I wouldn't intrude. I am respectful and try to be considerate. CNN, to me, is unbiased and informative. Even if it is not your news channel, it is hardly controversial - or so I thought.  However, I've had people comment on having CNN up there vs. Fox as if the announcers at CNN were attempting to brainwash the masses. The Chicken Little "The Sky is Falling" style Fox has adopted doesn't suit me, but I don't understand why some people object so strongly to CNN. It's pretty cut and dried.
What I'd love is to find out what you all watch for news between these channels.
It is arguable that this debate belongs in the TV thread, but if my feeling is right, this is a potential powder keg issue and that is for purely political reasons.
Please don't throw garbage at me.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on June 05, 2009, 03:26:45 PM
I watch neither.  I'm an MSNBC girl. I think that, while Rachel Maddow does not at all hide where she's coming from, she gives balanced interviews and she's not a total Obama fangirl the way Keith can be.  It's refreshing.  I watch both their shows without fail every week day. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: spencer_0123 on June 05, 2009, 03:27:27 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as "unbiased news" because the fact remains that these are huge profit based corporations. Every news station also follows their own politics. Fox leans Republican, while CNN and the Turner network lean more liberally. I can't say I watch one over the other since my cable provider doesn't even offer Fox News. I do know that I'd pick CBC News World, or BBC News anyday over CNN though. There's something about CNN that has always bothered me. Like you can just tell it's corporate. I know I'm not explaining myself very well here. Sorry  :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Replemishment on June 05, 2009, 03:37:17 PM
dinknflicker, I'm with you on the Fox news thing.  For a while my brother and I were emailing each other clips of Glen Beck's increasing paranoia for his idea of America, which were unintentionally hilarious and truly disturbing.  I can only watch that channel for a few minutes at a time, under the protective shield of irony.
I usually end up watching Rachel Maddow and sometimes Keith Olbermann, but the later in small quantities.  He's too angry and dogmatic for my taste, though I agree with him most of the time.  If that makes any sense whatsoever.
My main source of the news is probably NPR and the BBC, because I like the more international focus, and their quieter, less sensationalized approach.  I also love the accents at the BBC, because I am a huge anglophile, heh.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on June 05, 2009, 03:37:30 PM
FOX is Satan's spawn and I watch it only to keep up to date with what hatred is being spewed forth and marvel at some of the stuff they come up with. It is not good for my blood pressure though! Here in the UK we don't get MSNBC though the stuff I have watched Olbermann, Maddow etc. I think is incredibly biased - in a different way to Fox but it's still biased. I don't see why Olbermann is held up as some liberal icon - he is incredibly self-righteous and frankly the point of a news anchor is to provide facts, not opinions.

My view is coloured by the fact that our news service here in the UK is markedly different - the anchor does not provide any opinions - they simply present the facts, and then grill the guests about their different views. They play devil's advocate and actually probe the issue from all angles rather than present a story with a sensational view already formed e.g. "You won't believe what Obama said - coming up next" etc... So for real news I stick to BBC or Sky (which is owned by Murdoch but nothing like Fox because that would not fly here!).

CNN is good for international news, especially rounded sports coverage, but again the international CNN is very different to the US one where with Wolf, Anderson etc. the focus is very much anchor heavy. Out of the 3 options you guys have, I'd definitely go for CNN as it attempts to be neutral at least, but really I'd recommend checking out BBC, EuroNews, and even Al-Jazeera which despite what Fox might say actually covers a broad range of issues and is pretty interesting. It's refreshing that they focus on thousands that die in a flood in Bangladesh, or famine in Africa, whereas on other channels it is a two second clip.

Probably far more than you were looking for but I'm a bit of a news junkie! ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on June 05, 2009, 03:45:21 PM
I totally agree about the differences in news coverage between the UK and US, Ash. I was in Canada studying when 9/11 happened and I could not believe the news coverage coming from the states - it was so not what I was used to with the BBC! And that's what I'm always reminding my co-worker when he complains about his licence fee - it may be a pain in the ass, but I'm extremely grateful for the Beeb and (pretty much) everything it does. It's far from perfect, but it's a damn site better than some of the alternatives.

And as for Fox, I only watch it for the comedy value.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Bubbles on June 05, 2009, 03:49:09 PM
CNN is good for international news, especially rounded sports coverage, but again the international CNN is very different to the US one where with Wolf, Anderson etc. the focus is very much anchor heavy. Out of the 3 options you guys have, I'd definitely go for CNN as it attempts to be neutral at least, but really I'd recommend checking out BBC, EuroNews, and even Al-Jazeera which despite what Fox might say actually covers a broad range of issues and is pretty interesting. It's refreshing that they focus on thousands that die in a flood in Bangladesh, or famine in Africa, whereas on other channels it is a two second clip.

Ash, being an American...I hate the majority of our news sources.  Majority are ridiculously biased one way or the other (FOX makes me laugh but so to do the the ultra-liberal publications/news services).  CNN is ok.  But I'm with you--I always go to BBC to read/hear the news. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Replemishment on June 05, 2009, 03:50:08 PM
Ash86, I am so jealous.  Most of the news coverage in America is for-profit, commercially influenced and often flat-out pandering.  CNN has a spin-off channel, Headline News (HLN) which seems to be 99% focused on kidnapped little girls (Nancy Grace) and celebrity gossip.  Sometimes I'll flip by and it's "the Nancy Grace weekend," which seems like it could be one of the circles of hell for me personally.  I am in no way ambivalent towards kidnap victims, but for all of their coverage you wouldn't know that the demographic with the highest percentage of missing persons cases is 18-24 year old black men.  I can't help but let that influence my view of CNN proper's news coverage.  Totally unfair, I know, but that's how I feel.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on June 05, 2009, 03:56:17 PM
I'm the rare bird that doesn't have cable TV, so I don't watch any of the things you're all talking about.  Beyond that, the national news is on at 6:30 PM, which isn't really a time I can watch it.  My kids are too young to have to hear about all the crap and violence in the world.  

So I pick up my news "on the streets," as it were -- from links on iGoogle and then following links from there.  Suffice it to say that I'm not that well informed about what's going on in the world.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on June 05, 2009, 04:02:44 PM
Quote
I don't see why Olbermann is held up as some liberal icon - he is incredibly self-righteous and frankly the point of a news anchor is to provide facts, not opinions.

He's not an anchor.  He's a commentator.  That's kind of the difference between the daytime stuff on cable news and the primetime shows.  Essentially, Keith is paid to give his opinion.  Whereas someone like David Shuster, when he's doing daytime anchoring, is paid to give the news. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: girl7 on June 05, 2009, 04:09:33 PM
Re: the gay marriage thing --

I live in a very conservative area, and the students I teach are - for the most part - from very conservative families; a good number of them come to the university and are shocked at some of the subject matter they encounter.  Before I teach anything remotely "questionable," I give them the speech about intellectual curiosity and the ability to critically analyze a text without buying - or clinging to - an agenda.  

I've taught a history of marriage course a few times, and it culminates in a discussion about gay marriage.  Even though I knew I might well be walking into a nightmare, I really did think it was important that these students get the facts so that they might be able to look at the issue objectively at least (whether or not they changed their minds).  At the end of the unit, they had to write a response essay in which they took a stance on gay marriage (whether they were for or against it) and defended it with concrete evidence (as opposed to broad generalizations - i.e. "homosexuality is wrong," that sort of thing).

I'm really happy to say that out of the 85 or so students who took the class over the semesters that I taught it, only two of them insisted on clinging blindly to preconceived notions or weak justifications  after they'd done some reading/heard some facts, statistics, etc.  (I should note that even though I'm pro-gay marriage, I never express this opinion in class, nor do I push that agenda -- or the opposite -- at all, because I don't think it's my place to do so.)

Also, as far as an interesting thing to watch: Penn & Teller did an episode of Bullshit (sorry, but that's the name of the show!) dedicated to exploring the concept of Family Values, and it is really fascinating.  (They examine the issue of gay marriage in the course of it.)  
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on June 05, 2009, 04:25:22 PM
Quote
I don't see why Olbermann is held up as some liberal icon - he is incredibly self-righteous and frankly the point of a news anchor is to provide facts, not opinions.

He's not an anchor.  He's a commentator.  That's kind of the difference between the daytime stuff on cable news and the primetime shows.  Essentially, Keith is paid to give his opinion.  Whereas someone like David Shuster, when he's doing daytime anchoring, is paid to give the news. 

Yes, but his comments are incredibly biased and far too "I'm right, you're wrong" for my liking. His show really went downhill for me during the Presidential campaign where he, like all of MSNBC, just pounded Clinton all the time and had nothing critical at all to say about Obama (and this is coming from someone who actually flew out to the States to campaign for the guy so I'm not just some Clinton-nut) - how is it constructive to have segments like "Worst Person of in the World"? To me he is the same as Hannity or O'Reilly, except that liberals agree with his point of view, and he's actually educated unlike the Fox anchors, so they accept it.

Politics need not be as polarised and divisive as it is in the States where a lot of it I'm convinced is worsened by how split the media is. (You can still have cable worthy drama without that kind of media - look at our poor PM today - surrounded by resignations left, right and centre, plots to oust him, ministers stabbing him in the back - it's like the plot of a juicy novel - though incredibly sad too :().
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on June 05, 2009, 04:41:55 PM
...look at our poor PM today - surrounded by resignations left, right and centre, plots to oust him, ministers stabbing him in the back - it's like the plot of a juicy novel - though incredibly sad too :().

Good grief, I know! It's like EastEnders Goes To Westminster it's that insane. Everytime I check the news another minister has resigned - I'm just waiting for the villagers to show up with pitch forks and torches and effigies of Brown. Still, Have I Got News For You has been in fire lately!

And on the news issue - is there an American equivalent to Jeremy Paxman? I just somehow can't imagine anyone on a major news network in the US interrogating people from any political persuasion like he does! His Hague interview about Lord Ashcroft was brilliant!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on June 05, 2009, 05:01:03 PM

Good grief, I know! It's like EastEnders Goes To Westminster it's that insane. Everytime I check the news another minister has resigned - I'm just waiting for the villagers to show up with pitch forks and torches and effigies of Brown. Still, Have I Got News For You has been in fire lately!

And on the news issue - is there an American equivalent to Jeremy Paxman? I just somehow can't imagine anyone on a major news network in the US interrogating people from any political persuasion like he does! His Hague interview about Lord Ashcroft was brilliant!

I really don't think there is - the US could do with one, somebody like Jeremy Paxman who actually grills the politicians rather than asking softball questions and two, an equivalent to the Today programme with John Humphreys... The fact that the PM or any other politician involved in an issue will have to answer tough questions on the radio in the morning the day something breaks is a great tool - they are made to be accountable straight away.

Examples of Paxman and Humphreys for those who may be interested - Paxman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCo7qbzEX3c) (who is a bit full of himself but probably entitled to it!) - the last guy he interviews in that montage is one of the most famous interviews in British history - that particular politician has never lived it down! Since Humphreys is on the radio this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqaRQaEGfY) is the only one I could really find - quite interesting though as the Today programme is on BBC radio and he's grilling the Director General of the BBC regarding an outcry when they did not broadcast an appeal for Palestine. It's a BBC presenter questioning the actions of the BBC itself and asking tough questions of his boss! :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on June 05, 2009, 05:18:20 PM
I totally agree about the differences in news coverage between the UK and US, Ash. I was in Canada studying when 9/11 happened and I could not believe the news coverage coming from the states - it was so not what I was used to with the BBC! And that's what I'm always reminding my co-worker when he complains about his licence fee - it may be a pain in the ass, but I'm extremely grateful for the Beeb and (pretty much) everything it does. It's far from perfect, but it's a damn site better than some of the alternatives.

And as for Fox, I only watch it for the comedy value.

I agree with you, summerteeth and Ash86. We have to pay a licence fee in Norway as well, but it is worth it in my opinion, because the view is more balanced than on many of the news programs in the United States. (Granted; it's not perfect by any means, but it is okay.) I've lived in the US, and I was studying in the States on 9/11, so I remember watching Tom Brokaw 24/7 that first week after 9/11. I thought Jennings, Brokaw and Rather did a great job in the aftermath of 9/11, and it was obvious that the media wanted to understand what was happening.

However, it was difficult to find an American show that gave a clear and unbiased view of international news, so I started reading the news on BBC.co.uk instead. I also kept up with the news from back home so that I would be updated on the political situation in my home country. My political science professor actually told us (and he was totally serious) that if we wanted to know more about international politics, we should watch The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Obviously, it would show us how important it is to be critical of the news.

Nowadays, I watch the international version of CNN, which is usually very good, and it was excellent during the election last year. I also watch BBC World and the national channels. FOX News gives me a headache, and I feel as though they're attacking the rest of the world every single second with their nonsense. I also subscribe to The Rachel Maddow Show for free on iTunes so I watch that every day. I'm really impressed with her, and I think she's both intelligent and curious. She asks a lot of tough questions, but she does so in a way that the viewer understands, and you really learn a lot about topics that may have been forgotten otherwise. For instance, it was really interesting to watch the coverage of the young gay soldier who came out on her show last month. Would any of the major networks have covered that the way she did? I really doubt it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on June 13, 2009, 12:28:43 PM
I'm disappointed in the Iranian election.  Even if there was widespread fraud, there seems to be little chance anything will be done to investigate.  I find it difficult to believe Ahmadinejad could have won in such a landslide (but who knows).  In any case, heavy sigh; nothing's going to change on that front in the foreseeable future, then. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on June 13, 2009, 01:23:11 PM
Oh I know, Callisto.  He won with 63%.  Seems dubious.  It's disheartening.

Nowadays, I watch the international version of CNN, which is usually very good, and it was excellent during the election last year. I also watch BBC World and the national channels. FOX News gives me a headache, and I feel as though they're attacking the rest of the world every single second with their nonsense. I also subscribe to The Rachel Maddow Show for free on iTunes so I watch that every day. I'm really impressed with her, and I think she's both intelligent and curious. She asks a lot of tough questions, but she does so in a way that the viewer understands, and you really learn a lot about topics that may have been forgotten otherwise. For instance, it was really interesting to watch the coverage of the young gay soldier who came out on her show last month. Would any of the major networks have covered that the way she did? I really doubt it.

I get The Rachel Maddow Show on iTunes too.  She breaks down issues well and is willing to criticize any party when they do stupid stuff.

Edited because I did mean with 63%, not by.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on June 13, 2009, 02:14:42 PM
It's sad Ahmadinejad won, but to be fair I think a lot of the western media were blowing out of proportion how radical his rival was. Mousavi is no fan of the west either (he was a key player in the Islamic Revolution) and his election wouldn't have meant an epic change because the Ayatollah would remain the supreme leader.

And he didn't win by 63%, he got 63% compared to 32% for Mousavi - even though I'm sure there would have been vote rigging of some form that kind of margin suggests Ahmadinejad would have won anyway. It was good to see some clamour from the youth of Iran for change but I'm not sure that a lot of it had to do with foreign affairs (which is what the rest of the world is interested in) - it's domestic issues like the economy etc. which had built up dislike of Ahmadinejad amongst a certain section of the population.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on June 14, 2009, 07:50:04 PM
There is a lot going on in Iran post-election. For information you can check http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/ and http://www.iran101.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bitter pill on June 14, 2009, 08:30:13 PM
Twitter (http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23iranelection) is ablaze with coverage. It is amazing to see direct reports and even pictures from individuals witnessing the protests as they are happening.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on June 14, 2009, 08:33:12 PM
Twitter is one of the few sources of internet communication they haven't been able to shut down. It's funny and cool that this service that gets ridiculed as superficial is having a meaningful impact on a world event.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on June 23, 2009, 01:25:52 PM
Don't mess with Iran's women. (http://kalemeh.ir/images/docs/files/000009/nf00009785-1.jpg)

From the blog of experienced journalist Gary Sick.

http://garysick.tumblr.com/


Today in Haft-e Tir, there were so many members of basij that they outnumbered the demonstrators 3 or 4 to 1. They were less focused on women. This must be related to the murder of poor Neda. And this was also why whenever they got hold of a man, women would surround them and shout don’t beat him, don’t beat and they would turn and anxiously say we didn’t beat him.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on June 23, 2009, 02:27:23 PM
I like his blog. I'll just go ahead and date myself right here, and say that I remember the first Iranian revolution, back in the 70s. I was in college, and many, many of my fellow students were Iranians studying petroleum engineering. During the protests in Iran, they would gather in the square and have screaming matches with one another. I supported the students who wanted to overthrow the Shah, as I have never been a fan of tyranny. On the other hand, the Ayatollah turned out to be only slightly less tyrannical. And now the students who overthrew the tyrant Shah are running Iran, and cracking down on student protesters who want to overthrow them. It's all so deja vu.

I also agree with Gary Sick's estimate of Iranian culture and history. Historically, the Persians have been masters of devious politics, legendary from the time of the ancient Greeks. I suspect there will be no clear-cut "winners" of this conflict, that it will drag on for a long time, and the solution will be something we in the West don't understand or support, but which works for the Persians.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on June 24, 2009, 03:47:19 PM
You know, I thought the media was being totally over the top going on about the governor of South Carolina being missing in action and not being home with his kids on Father's Day (what a crime for dad to want peace and quiet on that day! lol).  But now he admitted being in Argentina having an affair?!? (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/24/south.carolina.governor/index.html)  Who saw that coming? lol

FWIW, unless there are conflicts of interest like in the case of Sen. Henson and if they are otherwise doing their job, I don't know why it should be public knowledge that they're having affairs.  Although, I guess in this case, he went AWOL and no one was left in charge.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on June 24, 2009, 05:22:46 PM
You know, I thought the media was being totally over the top going on about the governor of South Carolina being missing in action and not being home with his kids on Father's Day (what a crime for dad to want peace and quiet on that day! lol).  But now he admitted being in Argentina having an affair?!? (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/24/south.carolina.governor/index.html)  Who saw that coming? lol

My first thought when I read that was to wonder who is going to play him in the (inevitable) movie.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on June 24, 2009, 09:30:28 PM
You can read his love letter emails here. (http://www.thestate.com/sanford/story/839350.html)

I could digress and say that you have the ability to give magnificent gentle kisses, or that I love your tan lines or that I love the curve of your hips, the erotic beauty of you holding yourself (or two magnificent parts of yourself) in the faded glow of the night’s light

Quote
unless there are conflicts of interest like in the case of Sen. Henson and if they are otherwise doing their job, I don't know why it should be public knowledge that they're having affairs.  Although, I guess in this case, he went AWOL and no one was left in charge.

I think it's relevant in cases where the politician has set himself up as a guardian of moral values, as he did. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/sanford-was-harsh-critic_n_220325.html)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bkwrm on June 24, 2009, 11:07:02 PM
Quote
unless there are conflicts of interest like in the case of Sen. Henson and if they are otherwise doing their job, I don't know why it should be public knowledge that they're having affairs.  Although, I guess in this case, he went AWOL and no one was left in charge.

I think it's relevant in cases where the politician has set himself up as a guardian of moral values, as he did. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/sanford-was-harsh-critic_n_220325.html)

I agree, Swedge.  I hate the fact that everytime something like this happens, it's always the same generic apology.  I, for one, call bulls**t on that because obviously, these politicians are not thinking of the family(ies) they hurt or anything else beyond a few minutes in the sack.  Dumba****s    >:(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on June 24, 2009, 11:22:36 PM
And for someone who didn't want money from the stimulus package, it's pretty audacious that he flew on tax payer money to Argentina.

I have a good friend who is a teacher in South Carolina and he is mighty pissed about it.  His school doesn't get money while their governor is a lying twit. 

But, you know, it's the scary gays who give marriage a bad name.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on June 24, 2009, 11:34:16 PM
I think it's relevant in cases where the politician has set himself up as a guardian of moral values, as he did. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/sanford-was-harsh-critic_n_220325.html)

I didn't realize he was another sanctimonious hypocrite.  Oh, people can get on his case all they want then.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on June 25, 2009, 06:07:32 AM
And for someone who didn't want money from the stimulus package, it's pretty audacious that he flew on tax payer money to Argentina.

I have a good friend who is a teacher in South Carolina and he is mighty pissed about it.  His school doesn't get money while their governor is a lying twit. 

But, you know, it's the scary gays who give marriage a bad name.
Actually, the general assembly pushed through to accept the stimulus money.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on June 25, 2009, 06:49:34 AM
I thought they only took part of it?  My mistake (and my friend's, too) then.  Although him rejecting it followed by these actions is still pretty terrible, imo.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on June 25, 2009, 10:11:37 AM
My hubby brought up an interesting thought last night...... how would people who are pro-life feel if the government decided to make it mandatory to be an organ donor? If their argument for banning abortion is b/c every life should be saved, wouldn't it mean that they'd be ok with donating their organs to save another's life after they're dead?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Alamos on June 25, 2009, 11:13:43 AM
I watched his press conference yesterday and my first thought was at least his wife wasn't standing by her man as he was confessing his sins/stupidity.  I know it's the "role" of the politician's wife to be supportive of her husband. But there have been numerous times when the wife is standing right next to her husband as is confessing his infidelities, and they always look so defeated and hurt.  It's so frustrating.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on June 25, 2009, 03:35:24 PM
My hubby brought up an interesting thought last night...... how would people who are pro-life feel if the government decided to make it mandatory to be an organ donor? If their argument for banning abortion is b/c every life should be saved, wouldn't it mean that they'd be ok with donating their organs to save another's life after they're dead?

I'm confused. Are anti-choice advocates also generally anti-organ donor, too? I'd never heard that.

I can tell you that as a pro-choicer and as a prospective organ donor, I would still be pissed if the government made organ donating mandatory. It steps on rights in a big way. I'm not sure it'd be a partisan issue?

I don't have anything to say, really, about the SC governor. Except . . . WTF? Who does that?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on June 25, 2009, 03:50:11 PM
My hubby brought up an interesting thought last night...... how would people who are pro-life feel if the government decided to make it mandatory to be an organ donor? If their argument for banning abortion is b/c every life should be saved, wouldn't it mean that they'd be ok with donating their organs to save another's life after they're dead?

I'm confused. Are anti-choice advocates also generally anti-organ donor, too? I'd never heard that.

I can tell you that as a pro-choicer and as a prospective organ donor, I would still be pissed if the government made organ donating mandatory. It steps on rights in a big way. I'm not sure it'd be a partisan issue?

I'm assuming her point was that it's the 'right to your own body' argument.  That is, deciding to donate your organs is your personal choice--despite the fact that it can save a life, you can say no--it's still your choice.  So if all abortions should be outlawed because of the overriding concern for life, this argument would suggest that you should also not have the choice about your own organs if they can save a life.  Am I right, funky?  

It's an interesting parallel.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on June 25, 2009, 04:03:04 PM
When politicians are caught hiking the Appalachian trail - to use an expression becoming popular on political blogs - I understand the ridicule and scolding they get, but what I don't understand is why people automatically assume the wife is a blameless innocent. I'm not referring to you guys but to the general media.

We don't know what is going on in their marriages, whether or not Mrs Edwards or Sanford hiked the Appalachian trail themselves at some point in their many years together. The media should just stick to what it knows - one person did wrong - and not assume it means the other person is a perfect innocent.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: cdgeiger on June 25, 2009, 04:15:21 PM
The wife of Governor Sanford released a statement yesterday saying that she asked her husband to leave a couple of weeks ago, which is why she didn't know where he was.  She also said that she would take him back.  Here's her statement: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/jenny-sanfords-statement_n_220425.html
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on June 26, 2009, 08:56:26 AM
I'm assuming her point was that it's the 'right to your own body' argument.  That is, deciding to donate your organs is your personal choice--despite the fact that it can save a life, you can say no--it's still your choice.  So if all abortions should be outlawed because of the overriding concern for life, this argument would suggest that you should also not have the choice about your own organs if they can save a life.  Am I right, funky?  

It's an interesting parallel.

Yup - that was hubby's thought. I had never thought of it that way and thought it was interesting.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on June 26, 2009, 05:36:31 PM
unless there are conflicts of interest like in the case of Sen. Henson and if they are otherwise doing their job, I don't know why it should be public knowledge that they're having affairs.  

It should be public knowledge that they are hypocrites, that they swear to uphold one set of values in public and trash them in private life. Whether they're outed as adulterers or embezzlers or whatever, the point is that they were soliciting the public vote based on a lie. Democracy requires openness. We may not get it as much as we should, but we should demand it always. Those who ask for the public trust should render it.

If he had run for office on the platform of open marriage, for example, his actions would not have been hypocritical and I wouldn't care who he was dallying with.  But every time a politician lies about his private values, it endangers the public trust.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on June 26, 2009, 05:46:05 PM
unless there are conflicts of interest like in the case of Sen. Henson and if they are otherwise doing their job, I don't know why it should be public knowledge that they're having affairs.  

It should be public knowledge that they are hypocrites, that they swear to uphold one set of values in public and trash them in private life.

Hence my second comment on the topic. (http://mtt.just-once.net/mb/index.php?topic=610.msg195070#msg195070)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on June 27, 2009, 07:39:36 AM
And for someone who didn't want money from the stimulus package, it's pretty audacious that he flew on tax payer money to Argentina.

I have a good friend who is a teacher in South Carolina and he is mighty pissed about it.  His school doesn't get money while their governor is a lying twit. 

But, you know, it's the scary gays who give marriage a bad name.

Your last statement is very true. But by that same token, it is important to remember the millions of good people who slog out the day in/day out marriages with love and respect and out of duty. It is surpassingly important. It just doesn't make good headlines.
Let's take that further and hope that there are thousands of elected officials with honest motives who slog through their days looking out for the best interests of their constituents. It's not sexy and it's not glamorous, but I have to believe that the majority of public servants are well meaning people and only the spectacularly dishonest and selfish ones make the headlines.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on June 27, 2009, 07:42:37 AM
Apologies in advance for the double posting, but I was thinking about the health care reform packages being floated around. If every single congressman had to pay out of pocket for all of his healh care related expenses for just one week, with his/her own cash, I think they would get a true taste of what the American people face and there would be some changes made pronto.
I also think it would be pretty funny to see John McCain fumbling around in his wallet for some $$ saying "a teeth cleaning costs HOW much?"
That might just be me, though.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on July 03, 2009, 03:29:28 PM

Whoa! According to MSNBC online, Sarah Palin is going to resign as governor.  :o
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on July 03, 2009, 04:11:26 PM
That's odd, isn't it?  Why would she do that? 

Is something about to hit the fan, but it won't (or will be lessened) if she resigns?  Is she just sick of it?  Or is she going to concentrate on running for president?  (Please, God, no, not three years of that!)  She seems to me to be very ambitious; I can't imagine she's just going to lead a life of leisure and fishing at this point. 

Quote
Sarah Palin announced Friday she plans to resign as governor of Alaska in a few weeks, saying she will try to "affect positive change" from outside government.

Running for president would be "outside government" but trying to get back in at a much higher level.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on July 03, 2009, 04:17:12 PM
Damn, I was just coming here to post that!

I think she either wants to prepare to run for 2012 - but as someone pointed out, this doesn't actually look good for that either, because it makes her look like she never fulfills any duties, and she could have just not ran in the 2010 gubernatorial election - or there's some hella crazy scandal about to erupt. After all, this is more or less the ultimate Friday News Dumpin'. I am torn between wanting to watch the TV to find out more, and not wanting to listen to her voice and constant self-glorification.  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: jazzfan on July 03, 2009, 05:19:02 PM
Wow.  There's got to be something brewing behind this one.  We shall see.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on July 03, 2009, 05:40:05 PM
Reports are coming out that it's because she accidentally killed Jeff Goldblum.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on July 03, 2009, 09:31:03 PM
This is the best article I've read so far on the Palin thing -- New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/04/us/politics/04palin.html?ref=global-home).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on July 03, 2009, 10:00:22 PM
Quote
After all, this is more or less the ultimate Friday News Dumpin'.

I think she also chose this holiday weekend because she knew that Stewart and Colbert are on vacation all next week.  ;)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on July 04, 2009, 02:45:45 PM
There's a rumor about potential embezzlement indictments coming down against her. Of course that is mostly blog fodder, so we'll see if there's any truth to it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on July 04, 2009, 05:05:11 PM
Political scandals in Italy put every other country to shame. Reading more details  (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6638172.ece)about the latest sex scandal swirling around Berlusconi (who somehow keeps getting back into power despite all this stuff!) I can't help but think if even half of this sort of stuff concerned a US politician, they'd be toast immediately. Given what one incident nearly cost Clinton, can you imagine the impact of photos of women kissing while sitting on the President's lap would be?

It truly baffles me that Italians haven't kicked him to the curb yet - though he does provide great comedy fodder for the rest of the world. :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on July 30, 2009, 03:27:56 PM
I like the point this article makes (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25592.html) about Gates-gate and the White House get together.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on July 30, 2009, 03:31:34 PM
It's nice that they show the text of the 911 call in that; it's very clear that she was doing the right thing as a neighbor, calling if something looks odd.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on July 30, 2009, 03:41:26 PM
It's nice that they show the text of the 911 call in that; it's very clear that she was doing the right thing as a neighbor, calling if something looks odd.

Except Whalen's not a neighbor. She was walking to lunch when an actual neighbor stopped her and asked her to call 911. Regardless of that, I agree, TLK, that she and the neighbor did absolutely the right thing. Her mini-press conference yesterday broke my heart.

Quote
And somebody owes her a beer.
A lot of people owe her more than a frickin' beer. They owe her an apology.  :P
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on July 30, 2009, 03:43:55 PM
This whole story, and the backlash that Whalen has had to face, is why so many people prefer not to get involved even when there's a crime going on right in front of their faces.  She did the right thing and now is getting grief for it? It's no wonder people look the other way most of the time. 
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on July 30, 2009, 04:13:41 PM
What I can't figure out is why a neighbor wouldn't know what the person across the street looks like. Of course, I don't live in a ritzy neighborhood and I can practically see right into the living room of the person across the street - for some reason I imagine they have "rolling green lawns" that separate them from the street.  :P

I wish the media wouldn't beat things into the ground like they do. I'm already tired of hearing about this story over & over. Isn't there a war going on that they can be reporting on? Or maybe the disgusting idea that people think the health care bill is a way for our socialist government to kill old people?  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on July 31, 2009, 03:35:54 PM
Sometimes You Just Want to Ba-doink Someone on the Head Dept.

Fox News saw one focus of last night's beer happy hour as being the type of beer President Obama chose. Apparently it wasn't "domestic" enough for them. Talk about missing the bloody point. Sorry to rant, but some days the stupidity is harder to handle than others.
In fact Jon Stewart had a great line about it.... the fact that the president chose "the King of beers" makes Obama a monarchist and perhaps we should be concerned about that. Pretty great.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on July 31, 2009, 04:17:06 PM
Why didn't they tell us what Biden was drinking? Or what kind of peanuts they were eating? I feel like the story's incomplete without me knowing every single detail about the whole event. I think the media should spend at least 3 more days on it b/c I feel like I haven't gotten enough!



 ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on July 31, 2009, 04:42:34 PM
Ann Curry (http://twitter.com/AnnCurry) tweeted about what Biden was drinking (and all of them, actually).

Quote
Obama-Bud lite, VP-Bucklers non-alcoholic, Gates-Sam Adams, and Crowley-Blue moon. Nuts pretzels and friendly talk. What did you learn?

In her prior tweets:

Quote
NBC, ABC, CBS all leading with beer summit. Oh, and nuts are also being served.
Quote
Just watched beers carried on a tray, across a WH lawn. Well, you just don't see that everyday. :)
Quote
After the so called beer summit, Sgt. Crowley has scheduled a news conference. Why is this the top trending topic?

I thought she got across well how silly it was that this was big news.  Her tweets are among my favorites.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on July 31, 2009, 04:45:44 PM
The only real detail that matters is "No girls allowed!" I'm surprised they didn't make a crude sign with that on it and put it nearby.

It could be worse though. Somewhere deep in CNN headquarters there's probably a team working on a way to spin a Michael Jackson angle on this.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on July 31, 2009, 04:55:14 PM
Girls don't drink beer, and we just get in the way when there's real stuff to be done, Swedge.  You know that. ;)

It could be worse though. Somewhere deep in CNN headquarters there's probably a team working on a way to spin a Michael Jackson angle on this.

I don't know about that, but they could have had "Ebony and Ivory" playing in the background.  That could start a whole new thing. ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on July 31, 2009, 05:04:23 PM
Obama was drinking Bud Lite? Can I take back my vote towards him?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on July 31, 2009, 05:12:09 PM
Ann Curry (http://twitter.com/AnnCurry) tweeted about what Biden was drinking (and all of them, actually).

Quote
Obama-Bud lite, VP-Bucklers non-alcoholic, Gates-Sam Adams, and Crowley-Blue moon. Nuts pretzels and friendly talk. What did you learn?
The 'teachable moment' was that Crowley has the best taste of all of them.

BTW, what's with this 'teachable moment' crap?  Is the phrase 'learning experience' not accurate?  Criminy, use plain English, people!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on July 31, 2009, 08:49:56 PM

Here's a little bright spot in the whole Gates-gate fiasco in Cambridge.

Gates sends flowers to woman who called the police (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/gates_sends_flo.html) (http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/neverbeendone/smilies/flowers.gif)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 01, 2009, 09:10:57 AM
Girls don't drink beer, and we just get in the way when there's real stuff to be done, Swedge.  You know that. ;)

It could be worse though. Somewhere deep in CNN headquarters there's probably a team working on a way to spin a Michael Jackson angle on this.

I don't know about that, but they could have had "Ebony and Ivory" playing in the background.  That could start a whole new thing. ::)

Outstanding. I am laughing really hard right now.
Also, they could have served Black and Tan!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 01, 2009, 09:11:54 AM
Obama was drinking Bud Lite? Can I take back my vote towards him?

He sure doesn't need to be drinking lite beer. The man could use a little meat on his bones already.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on August 01, 2009, 09:47:01 AM
Obama was drinking Bud Lite? Can I take back my vote towards him?

He sure doesn't need to be drinking lite beer. The man could use a little meat on his bones already.


Not to mention better taste in beers. I feel duped by the Obama campaign! I would never consciously vote for a Budweiser drinker, lite or not! Corruptioners!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on August 01, 2009, 05:31:00 PM
Also, they could have served Black and Tan!

 ;D  Good one.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on August 02, 2009, 07:38:57 PM
McCain: Palin to be 'force' in Republican Party (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-08-02-mccain-palin_N.htm?csp=34)

After the failed presidential bid, is McCain any kind of force in the Republican Party?  I'm not trying to be a smart-ass; I'm trying to get an answer from those of you (many, many) people who know more about politics than I do. 

If he's worse than a lame duck at this point, his opinion on Palin may be more hindrance than support.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on August 02, 2009, 07:52:40 PM
All I can say is that I dearly hope Palin is a force in the Republican party.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on August 02, 2009, 08:04:57 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on August 02, 2009, 08:25:55 PM
All I can say is that I dearly hope Palin is a force in the Republican party.

larry------->  (http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/neverbeendone/smilies/49e094f6.gif)  <---------halfbaked
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on August 04, 2009, 04:45:24 PM
Bill Clinton satisfies Kim Jong Il's need for attention and the two journalists in North Korea are finally pardoned and liberated. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/04/nkorea.clinton/index.html)  Great news!  

On a lighter note, Helen Thomas, the White House reporter and Barack Obama were both born August 4th, and he presented birthday cupcakes to her (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/04/obama-sings-happy-birthda_0_n_251088.html).  She turns 89 today.  What a force of nature.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on August 04, 2009, 11:32:09 PM
Bill Clinton satisfies Kim Jong Il's need for attention and the two journalists in North Korea are finally pardoned and liberated. (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/04/nkorea.clinton/index.html)  Great news!  
The main difference between KJI and a 2 year old is the nuclear weapons.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on August 05, 2009, 01:56:09 PM
This video (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/al-gore-welcomes-freed-journalists-home/?partner=rss&emc=rss) of the journalists coming home and being greeted by their families (and Al Gore, and then Clinton shows up) might have made me cry.  Okay, it did!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 06, 2009, 08:49:42 AM
The main difference between KJI and a 2 year old is the nuclear weapons.

Well, that and your average 2 year old has better clothes.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 06, 2009, 08:56:02 AM
McCain: Palin to be 'force' in Republican Party (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-08-02-mccain-palin_N.htm?csp=34)

After the failed presidential bid, is McCain any kind of force in the Republican Party?  I'm not trying to be a smart-ass; I'm trying to get an answer from those of you (many, many) people who know more about politics than I do. 

If he's worse than a lame duck at this point, his opinion on Palin may be more hindrance than support.

I can see some Republicans supporting McCain because regardless of how you feel about his politics he has walked the walk and talked the talk. He did fight for his country. He was a prisoner of war. He has served in Congress for a long time (okay I'm not sure that's so much a positive character trait, but I sure wouldn't want to do it). He has also crossed party lines. But Sarah Palin? The going got slightly tough for her and she quit a job she was elected to do. ONe she promied to do.  Ugh. She just packed up her marbles and went home. If I were a voter in the state of Alaska, I would find that unforgiveable. She's not a force for anyone; she's a quitter. I know people are saying what a bright political future she has and what a strong woman she is - HA I say to them, HA.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on August 06, 2009, 04:02:05 PM
It's not much of a surprise, but Sonia Sotomayor was confirmed! (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/06/sonia.sotomayor/index.html)

McCain: Palin to be 'force' in Republican Party (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-08-02-mccain-palin_N.htm?csp=34)

After the failed presidential bid, is McCain any kind of force in the Republican Party?  I'm not trying to be a smart-ass; I'm trying to get an answer from those of you (many, many) people who know more about politics than I do.  

If he's worse than a lame duck at this point, his opinion on Palin may be more hindrance than support.

I can see some Republicans supporting McCain because regardless of how you feel about his politics he has walked the walk and talked the talk. He did fight for his country. He was a prisoner of war. He has served in Congress for a long time (okay I'm not sure that's so much a positive character trait, but I sure wouldn't want to do it). He has also crossed party lines. But Sarah Palin? The going got slightly tough for her and she quit a job she was elected to do. ONe she promied to do.  Ugh. She just packed up her marbles and went home. If I were a voter in the state of Alaska, I would find that unforgiveable. She's not a force for anyone; she's a quitter. I know people are saying what a bright political future she has and what a strong woman she is - HA I say to them, HA.

From what I understand, McCain appeals very strongly to moderate Republicans, because of these traits. Apart from the 2008 campaign, I do like him, because I think he's reasonable and willing to compromise. His party's base isn't really crazy about him, though, because they view him as too liberal. Much like a more liberal Democrat is now challenging Arlen Spector in the primaries in Pennsylvania, McCain has a total wingnut primary opponent in Arizona who, if I'm not mistaken, actually advocates building a fence on the US border to keep Mexicans out.  ::) Apparently it's a large part of why McCain voted against Sotomayor, despite being one of the more moderate Republicans; he needs to keep his Republican cred.

Sarah Palin is just... no, and I'll stop there.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on August 06, 2009, 06:31:01 PM
Really disappointed in McCain's vote against Sotomayor. I thought he was about "Country First", but I guess it's really "NRA First."
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: frautotenkinder on August 06, 2009, 06:38:36 PM
I'm excited for the new Supreme Court justice!!

The neatest part of her nomination and confirmation process, for me, was realizing she only met President Obama the day he interviewed her for the position. (All the other candidates on the short list, were at least slight acquaintances of his.) Think about it--how many times have you wanted a job, a job you're eminently qualified for, but suddenly you have the sinking feeling--you don't know anyone in the company's HR.

Sotomayor worked hard, studied hard, and qualified for a job of a lifetime. She got the interview and the position!

(I can't put my finger on why I'm so impressed by all of this. I was unemployed for a little less than a year, and switched careers. It was a super vulnerable time for me, and I still think about the job search.)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on August 07, 2009, 10:41:20 AM
Bill Clinton's Badass Equivalent: Bond or McClane? (http://www.cracked.com/blog/bill-clinton-bond-or-mcclane/) ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on August 07, 2009, 04:47:37 PM
My neighbor sent me these links about the Healthcare stuff that is going on. She says they are relatively nonbiased...but some are. But, either way, I think its worth looking at and could be interesting (I myself have only had a chance to skim some of the links... so please don't hate me if they are full of stupid idiotic rants)

ETA: More biased than first thought... *sigh*
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on August 07, 2009, 05:09:15 PM
Those are extremely biased. Of course, there are plenty of sites that skew the opposite way, but the Heritage Foundation, the National Center for Policy Analysis, Cato Institute, and Newsmax are all extremely right-wing (well, the Cato Institute follows libertarian principles IIRC). They may have their points and the few I looked at weren't crazy rants, but to say they're unbiased is just frankly untrue.

I was just coming here to say that I am so tired of the BS in these health care town halls. Yes, it's your right to go and ask difficult questions. Going and SCREAMING to the point where no one - supporters, critics, people with genuine questions, even the government's officials - can say anything is not a right.

I'm not crazy about Paul Krugman, but he has a good article about the whole health care debacle that actually terrified me here (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/opinion/07krugman.html?_r=3). The last two paragraphs are just... scary and true.


ETA: Oh, Sarah Palin. Saying what I want to about this quote and her in general will probably get me banned, so I'll just provide what she said:
Quote
In a new posting on her Facebook account, former Gov. Sarah Palin today made a dire statement about health care reform -- that it could result in an Obama-created "death panel" killing her infant son with Down syndrome. "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."
Hey Sarah, how 'bout in honor of the American soldier, ya quit makin' things up?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on August 07, 2009, 05:09:26 PM
Quote
She says they are relatively nonbiased...but some are.

Respectfully, I have to disagree with you, Em. With the exception of the first link which is the actual HR bill, the rest of the links are from right-leaning organizations that are opposed to changing the health care system. They're not unbiased.

I had no luck with the second link. It led me to a kinda blank page.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: EmilyHalpert on August 07, 2009, 05:14:04 PM
Yeah, the more I look, the more biased they are.... Sorry about that. This was from a neighbor that's actually generally pretty sane and levelheaded about most things.

All I know about this whole mess is I'm for it considering my current insurance policy is don't get sick.

ETA: The person who sent it out just made me laugh.
Quote
Don't be distracted by the nitpicking over whether or not a source is
biased. It's just another WMD (Weapon of Mass Distraction) tactic that Liberals love to use.
Oh, yes.... not the person I thought she was...
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sachiel on August 10, 2009, 08:46:54 AM
The health care business gets me so angry.

People who are opposed to to socialised health care are selfish and either willfully ignorant or just plain mean.  I've read so many excuses from people who rationalise with the horrible arguments of "I don't need it.  My private insurance covers everything I need! (but I've never needed anything beyond a general check-up)" to "I pay for my insurance.  I don't want to pay for a poor person's insurance too!" to "[useless anecdote after anecdote]*" to believing all the ridiculous lies put out about the systems in Canada and Europe.

I especially love how they flat out ignore facts, claiming they're somehow biased while eating up nothing but the biased garbage people with insurance companies at their backs are spewing out.

Fact: insurance companies make money, good money, from everyone.  They less they pay out (for things like, you know, actual medical procedures like check-ups and necessary prescriptions and other silly junk) the more of the premiums they keep for themselves.  Capitalism at its finest: the rich get richer off your state of health.

Fact: you already pay for the health care of poor people by higher insurance rates AND TAXES.  What do you think Medicare and Medicaid is?  And where do you think hospitals make up for the people who can't pay their bills?

Fact: more people declare bankruptcy because of medical bills than any other reason.  You're either dead or you're poor.  Great choices.

Fact: a politician will stand between you and your health care?  Do you think that's worse than a bureaucrat standing there who is more concerned with his wallet than anything you might need?  Because right now that's what's happening.  But somehow I guess that's OK, because this is America, and capitalism is fine under all circumstances.

Fact: the USA spends more money on health care per person than any country.  If you can get the help you need, it'll be pretty good, but the amount of people who can't is a tragedy.  Not talking about illegal immigrants, since that's such a concern.  American citizens.  Not all poor, not all urban, not all minorities.  Even those who have health insurance, in many cases, don't have adequate coverage.

Of course, all stories good and bad are anecdotal*, but the fact is that state of health insurance is getting worse.  Prices are inflating (for multiple reasons--no one thing to blame, not even poor people or liberals), more and more necessary health care, prescriptions, and procedures are getting denied, and all I hear from opponents of any type of socialised health care is "Screw you. I got mine."


*not all anecdotes are useless, but they will generally be biased.  Removing biases is an important aspect to straightening out health care in the US.  Besides, I have an anecdote too, so nyah.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on August 10, 2009, 01:33:59 PM
I totally agree with you sachiel - I cannot for the life of me understand how the whole of the USA isn't calling out for single-payer healthcare. The fact that the richest country in the world has people dying due to treatable diseases is reprehensible - how can anyone justify that? Health is not a luxury - it's a basic right, no matter how rich/poor/kind/horrible you are. People expect free schooling up to a certain age right? Should that too be something you only get if you can afford it?

All of the myths put out by the insurance lobby in the States are truly sad and the fact that people buy into them even more so. Do people think European nations are socialist because we don't have to worry about our bank balance before going to the doctor? As sachiel said, the US actually spends more than any other nation on Earth on a far worse system - why not scrap all the insurance rubbish and have a national healthcare system that everyone is entitled to? For those who love their private insurance, and private healthcare, a nationalised system does not mean that the private disappears. In the same way that you can choose to send your children to private school, you can choose to go to a private hospital. It just means the rest of the population who can't afford it don't suffer.

I wish politicians actually had the guts to say all that though - I doubt this new wave of healthcare reform will make that much difference either as it'll be watered down so much. As much as people complain, once a radical overhaul was done, they wouldn't want to get rid of it (e.g. Medicare and Medicaid). Even back in the late 1940s when the British welfare state was set up (free healthcare, schooling, social benefits for all) there was a lot of opposition to it, but now despite its problems no one would dare get rid of it because everybody accepts the basic principle behind it - there are minimum standards that a society must aspire to regardless of how difficult it may be.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sara2009 on August 10, 2009, 03:54:12 PM



ETA: Oh, Sarah Palin. Saying what I want to about this quote and her in general will probably get me banned, so I'll just provide what she said:
Quote
In a new posting on her Facebook account, former Gov. Sarah Palin today made a dire statement about health care reform -- that it could result in an Obama-created "death panel" killing her infant son with Down syndrome. "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."
Hey Sarah, how 'bout in honor of the American soldier, ya quit makin' things up?

I feel like I'm missing something here, but why does she think this? Isn't Obama's proposal that everyone should have access to health care? If so, how is that judging people based on "level of productivity in society." I have to admit that I don't completely understand a lot of this stuff, so I would appreciate being enlightened.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on August 10, 2009, 04:12:23 PM
I think the fear over socialized/nationalized health care is that it will create a system where availability of care will become a major issue; that doctors and hospitals will naturally be forced to do more 'triage' with regards to people's care, and people who need major procedures will have to wait. 

I have no idea what will happen. I don't know anything about how this stuff runs.  I do know that when my mom lost her insurance after retiring, and went on Medicare, she had a hell of a time finding a doctor that would accept Medicare.  And she's afraid that if it's all nationalized, she'll just be refused or shoved to the back of the line as a useless old person.  I know that sounds irrational, but I can see where her fear comes from: if services are more limited, she'd be one of the first to be 'bumped,' right?  At least, that's what she thinks, and it's what the AARP is telling seniors.

To our European members, I'll ask: there's a perception here that there are terrible problems with access to care, long waiting periods for procedures, etc., in nationalized health care systems.  I don't know if there's truth to that or if it's all propaganda.  Can you give us some firsthand accounts of what the care is like?  I'd love to hear some legitimate comments (including gripes about problems!) from people who actually have nationalized health care.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on August 10, 2009, 04:17:34 PM
I feel like I'm missing something here, but why does she think this? Isn't Obama's proposal that everyone should have access to health care? If so, how is that judging people based on "level of productivity in society." I have to admit that I don't completely understand a lot of this stuff, so I would appreciate being enlightened.

Apparently, one of the things they were talking about with the health care issue is that they want to encourage people to have a living will. According to Obama, the government has always encouraged people to have one, but I guess it wasn't spelled out as loudly as recently.

The conservative base has decided to twist the idea of encouraging people to have a living will into saying that Obama wants to get rid of old people and others that aren't as productive.  ::) Unfortunately, it seems that there are a lot of people on the right that believe everything they hear without doing any sort of real research - thinking that Fox News and Rush are telling everyone the absolute truth instead of thinking rationally. How could anyone in their right mind honestly think that Obama would want to get rid of old people?!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: brokenloon on August 10, 2009, 04:22:55 PM
There are serious arguments against the proposed health care reform, but the hysterical disinformation from the far right has no basis in reality and should simply be ignored.  

My favorite is the woman who was raving about not wanting the government involved in her health care program she had, she responded that she had medicare.  

Palin's remarks are so outrageously false and irresponsible that they should disqualfiy her for any serious consideration for public office in the future.  I mean, if she wasn't already disqualified by her general lack of intellect, knowledge of foreign affairs, ethical lapses, and handful of other outrageously dumb statements.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: S.K on August 10, 2009, 04:34:28 PM

To our European members, I'll ask: there's a perception here that there are terrible problems with access to care, long waiting periods for procedures, etc., in nationalized health care systems.  I don't know if there's truth to that or if it's all propaganda.  Can you give us some firsthand accounts of what the care is like?  I'd love to hear some legitimate comments (including gripes about problems!) from people who actually have nationalized health care.

From what I can tell, there is some truth to what you've heard: it's probably not just propaganda. I know that the long waiting periods can be a particularly severe problem. However, these things change a lot from country to country and even region to region. Personally, I've needed medical care of sorts pretty regularly ever since I was fifteen and I've never had any problems getting it (anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much, but you asked). At the moment I need regular medication and care and I can get both without going bankrupt, so I'm relatively happy with they way things are where I live. But no system is perfect.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on August 10, 2009, 04:35:57 PM
Quote
Can you give us some firsthand accounts of what the care is like?  I'd love to hear some legitimate comments (including gripes about problems!) from people who actually have nationalized health care.

Yes, it is true the waiting periods tend to be longer, especially for non-urgent procedures.  If you have a cancer diagnosis, you will start treatment ASAP, but for minor surgeries, yes, there can be waiting lists of 6 months to a year, even longer.  Because of that, in Canada, there are now private clinics to get certain tests (for example, routine ultrasounds) more quickly if you're willing to pay or have insurance to pay for it.  However, I would never give up the universal healthcare.  All the seniors I know have gotten all the healthcare they need, even though many are on very restricted budgets.  I've honestly not known anyone for whom a procedure was refused, unless they were in palliative care (i.e., had only a few weeks to live and were not going to receive life saving procedures).  My grandmother, who is now 83, underwent shoulder surgery two years ago after a fall and received physio and all treatment without having to be concerned with costs.  It's allowed her to recover and go back to her activities.  

Is it a perfect system?  No.  The nursing staff and medical personnel are often overworked, depending on the settings, and it's hard to get a primary care physician, although this is more a problem that everyone becomes a specialist as opposed to a GP these days.  But it encourages doctors to work together as teams to streamline treatment and prevent repeated tests from being performed not to strain hospital budgets.  Another downside is also that they tend not to keep you in hospitals for very long, trying to encourage recovery/treatment being given a home, if possible.  We have more and more nurses doing home visits while family members care for patients.  My dad had cardiac bypass surgery a few years ago, and after 3 days, he was back at home.  I had to go take care of him for 2 weeks.  

But if I'm sick, I can just show up at the ER with my health card and I'll get treated.  That's definitely peace of mind.

I cannot believe people are saying with a straight face that Obama is trying to kill old people.  ::)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: lisahoo on August 10, 2009, 04:42:07 PM
The fear that older Americans will be essentially 'put on an iceberg' is not due to the living will issue, it has more to do with the fear that the expensive drugs and procedures that older Americans need more often than younger ones will not be available and that those who need more (or more expensive) services under the new plan will not get them and essentially, be allowed to die off because they cost the plan more money.

I have a feeling I'm going to regret dipping my toe into the water here, but the living will isn't what my parents & inlaws are worried about.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Morning Angel on August 10, 2009, 04:49:42 PM
The fear that older Americans will be essentially 'put on an iceberg' is not due to the living will issue, it has more to do with the fear that the expensive drugs and procedures that older Americans need more often than younger ones will not be available and that those who need more (or more expensive) services under the new plan will not get them and essentially, be allowed to die off because they cost the plan more money.

I have a feeling I'm going to regret dipping my toe into the water here, but the living will isn't what my parents & inlaws are worried about.

You have the right to disagree and voice why. I think we were mostly rolling our eyes at some of the hysterics some people are having.  I think there are definitely good reasons to have a reticience facing universal healthcare.   But as far as older people are concerned, would the insurance company even cover those super expensive lifesaving treatments?  From having heard some of the stories of American friends haggling with the insurance companies over reimbursement or not having the choice to see the doctor they want, so it seems it's not all clear cut on that side either.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on August 10, 2009, 04:51:25 PM

I have no idea what will happen. I don't know anything about how this stuff runs.  I do know that when my mom lost her insurance after retiring, and went on Medicare, she had a hell of a time finding a doctor that would accept Medicare.  And she's afraid that if it's all nationalized, she'll just be refused or shoved to the back of the line as a useless old person.  I know that sounds irrational, but I can see where her fear comes from: if services are more limited, she'd be one of the first to be 'bumped,' right?  At least, that's what she thinks, and it's what the AARP is telling seniors.


Callisto, I don't think your mom is getting that info from AARP. They're in support of changing the health care system.

This comes directly from their website (http://www.aarp.org/).

Quote

LeaMond added: “The opponents of reform will stop at nothing to derail the process and protect their own vested interests—even if it means misleading older Americans. We’re here to make sure everyone knows the facts and not the myths.”

One of AARP’s new print ads reads: “Special interest groups are trying to block progress on health care reform using myths and scare tactics. Like the myth that health care reform will give the government the power to make life-and-death decisions for everyone. That’s simply false. The fact is, no one, including the government or your insurance company, will be given power to make life-and-death decisions for anyone regardless of their age. Those decisions will be made by you, your doctor and your family.”

source (http://www.aarp.org/aarp/presscenter/pressrelease/articles/health_care_debate_ads.html)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on August 10, 2009, 04:57:12 PM
To our European members, I'll ask: there's a perception here that there are terrible problems with access to care, long waiting periods for procedures, etc., in nationalized health care systems.  I don't know if there's truth to that or if it's all propaganda.  Can you give us some firsthand accounts of what the care is like?  I'd love to hear some legitimate comments (including gripes about problems!) from people who actually have nationalized health care.

I can see where people are coming from with that, and yes there are problems with our healthcare system at times, but that is often down to resources, not the nationalisation aspect. Far and away the best thing about having free healthcare for all, such as the NHS that we have, is that you don't have to think twice about going to the doctor and so problems are caught early.

The British system is split into two - primary care and secondary care. Primary care means your local GP (general practitioner) i.e family doctor whose clinic you would go to should you first have a problem. He/She would normally know you, have all your notes, history and be able to prescribe you any medication you need. People can complain about getting appointments with GPs but it's really not too bad - of course you could end up with a bad doctor/experience, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it is free. In fact primary care is actually run as a private enterprise with each surgery/clinic being a business that is funded by the government according to the number of patients on its lists/services it provides etc.

If I take myself as an example - I went and gave blood the other day and was told I was slightly anaemic so should see the doctor. I rang up for an appointment the next day, got one for that afternoon, walked in, had a five minute appointment, got a blood test scheduled for later in the week, then had a follow up and was prescribed iron tablets. I saw the doctor twice and saw a nurse for the blood test - all I had to pay for were the tablets - a flat rate no matter what medicine I'm prescribed, be they cancer meds or ibuprofen. If I had been under 18, over 65, pregnant, on any sort of social benefits (for being out of work etc.) even that would have been free. Now that was a really simple problem that hadn't been affecting my life, but can at times be indicative of a bigger problem. If I had to pay for those 3 consultations, even if I had insurance, I think I may have thought twice - I'm a healthy 22 year old - why bother filling out all those forms for such a small issue? The ease and convenience of a free system means an overall healthy society, one where medicine is far more proactive, rather than reactive.

If my problem had been bigger, i.e. my GP had thought I needed to see a specialist - be that a gynaecologist, dermatologist, ENT etc. then I would be referred to the local hospital. That is known as secondary care and is similarly completely free (all medicines given to you while in hospital are free too as are all medical procedures). Here there can be an issue of long waiting lists e.g. I had bad skin when I was younger and had to wait a month for an appointment with the dermatologist. Usually though, if it is a serious acute problem, you will get attention straight away.

I wouldn't say that it's a utopia where no money decisions are made and things are brilliant. Clearly some areas could be better funded, nurses could be paid more, there could be shorter waiting times in some places - but overall it's pretty good. The way the secondary care system works is that the hospital is paid for a procedure (e.g. MRI, Ultrasound) by the primary care provider (local GP) who are funded by their primary care trust. Rather strange as obviously all the money is tax payer money but changing hands! This means though that there is an element of competition/incentives in the system - it's not a total free for all. Though the consumer (i.e. patient) does not see any bill for their stay in hospital, there is a bill which is sent out to someone. They are aware of the costs of tests and thus are usually more discerning with them.

I don't mean to imply that anyone wouldn't get a test due to the cost - that is not the case at all. No one will come after a doctor for doing too many tests! Simply it encourages an environment where doctors think a lot more rather than doing every test in the book (if you can afford it) or none at all (because you can't afford it). The fact that you go to a generalist initially, and there is no culture of going to specialists, also means IMO a better overall picture of your health. There is no need for going to a gynaecologist every year yet that seems to be a thing in the States - other places in the world seem to be doing fine without that expenditure and frankly intrusiveness! You need a smear test now and then and everyone gets that done at a hospital at certain ages.

As for any worries that people are sent off to die because they cost too much to look after - that is simply not the case. The decisions are in the hands of the doctors and they are not concerned with money when looking at the life or death prognosis of a patient. Older people should have no concerns at all in that regard.

Despite any flaws there may be, I think it's overall a brilliant system and more than anything it's fair. With a private system, the rich may get quick, fast treatment, but the poor (and ultimately society) suffer a lot more. Sorry for the epic post (it's an issue I care about and with my dad being a doctor in the secondary care system and my mother a doctor in primary care perhaps one I know a little too much about!) - hope that gives people some idea of how it works. :)

For those who are so against reform, what is the nightmare scenario that they envisage? And why do you think there is no country on earth clamouring for the current US system if it is the best out of all the options?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Callisto on August 10, 2009, 04:58:00 PM
Thanks for that, halfbaked. I don't know where she heard that, then-- probably Fox News, which is, of course, the only news she'll listen to... sigh.

lisahoo articulated exactly what she's really worried about, actually. 

Thank you for the comments, guys.  I am still on the fence about how I feel about all of this, but I'm willing to be educated, and it drives me mad when there's a knee-jerk reaction of NO! without actually examining what's being proposed.  I'm generally of the opinion that the government does not do anything efficiently, so this has potential disaster written all over it.  At the same time, the current system causes people to go bankrupt if they have severe illnesses, so... something needs to change.

Frankly, I'll be surprised if anything does change, though. It doesn't matter what Obama promised or even what he wants.  It's nigh-impossible to change an entrenched status quo, and certainly not quickly, so it won't surprise me if we're still talking about this four years from now.   :-\
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on August 10, 2009, 05:33:00 PM
The thing about nationalised healthcare like the NHS, to me at least, is that it gives you more options. No one here has to think twice about getting medication or treatment or even just seeing the doctor. And if you find the waiting lists too slow, then you are free to pay for private healthcare.

I suppose I'm very biased about it, because it's all I've ever known and the idea of having to pay for your healthcare is almost ludicrous to me. I can't imagine how I would possibly afford it, and my parents for sure couldn't.

In fact, my parents could well be dead if it wasn't for the NHS. My mother discovered she had a heart condition because she went to the doctor with a minor pain, they sent her to the hospital where she was taken into the cardiac unit for observation. Whilst there, she had an episode with her heart (I don't really know the details, but I know it took them two hours to stabilise her). Turns out her pain was nothing to do with her heart, it was just extremely good luck that she was in hospital when it happened, otherwise she'd have been in serious trouble. But my parents have always had to struggle financially, and I'd be willing to bet good money she'd never have gone to the doctor about that minor pain if she had to think about paying for it. She's now on medication for life, which she doesn't pay for as she's a pensioner. Her and my dad have both had so many problems over the past few years as they've gotten older, and seen so many different specialists it's unreal. Whilst they've often had to wait for procedures, they've not had to wait for anything acute.

In other political news, today is the 40th anniversary of the start of the Troubles. It's a bit weird watching the news about it, seeing how far we've come yet how far we still have to come. Last night I went to see Neil Hannon from The Divine Comedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Hannon) at the Andersonstown Leisure Centre as the closing gig for the West Belfast Festival. Andersonstown in West Belfast is a very catholic/nationalist area, and to go see an astoundingly brilliant musician and songwriter who is the son of a Church of Ireland clergyman sing this song (http://www.lyricsdir.com/the-divine-comedy-sunrise-lyrics.html) in the heart of West Belfast really did bring a lump to the throat. This is a very weird and fucked up little place in many ways, but occasionally there are things to be proud of.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on August 11, 2009, 12:21:51 AM

ETA: Oh, Sarah Palin. Saying what I want to about this quote and her in general will probably get me banned, so I'll just provide what she said:
Quote
In a new posting on her Facebook account, former Gov. Sarah Palin today made a dire statement about health care reform -- that it could result in an Obama-created "death panel" killing her infant son with Down syndrome. "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."
Hey Sarah, how 'bout in honor of the American soldier, ya quit makin' things up?


Make certain you watch The Daily Show tonight or in a rerun tomorrow, bigtunette. I think Jon read your post.  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: larrymcg421 on August 11, 2009, 05:48:27 PM
The thing to remember is that if you have a private plan or a work plan, the bill will not affect you at all. It doesn't take that away. What the bill does most importantly is prevent insurance companies for denying claims based on pre-existing conditions. There's alot of fear, especially in this current job climate, of losing your job, because when you get a new job and a new plan, anything your currently being treated for will likely not be covered anymore.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on August 12, 2009, 08:36:32 AM
There's alot of fear, especially in this current job climate, of losing your job, because when you get a new job and a new plan, anything your currently being treated for will likely not be covered anymore.

Including some that don't cover pregnancies - which I think is insane b/c prenatal care is such an important part of bringing a healthy person into the world. Silly that they would rather deny pregnancy claims, but then have to deal with the consequences if there's something wrong after the baby is born (which I'm guessing could end up being more expensive).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: sachiel on August 12, 2009, 08:52:42 AM
There's alot of fear, especially in this current job climate, of losing your job, because when you get a new job and a new plan, anything your currently being treated for will likely not be covered anymore.

Including some that don't cover pregnancies - which I think is insane b/c prenatal care is such an important part of bringing a healthy person into the world. Silly that they would rather deny pregnancy claims, but then have to deal with the consequences if there's something wrong after the baby is born (which I'm guessing could end up being more expensive).


Don't you know, having a uterus and being female are pre-existing conditions.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 12, 2009, 12:46:22 PM
I find myself in the car more often than not during Phllies games, forced to listen to them on AM radio. Very unfortunately the station that carries the games also hosts a bag full of the biggest blathering idiots and hotheads ever to draw breath. I actually heard Rush Limbaugh opine that his talent is on loan from God. I have no words.
Well, other than maybe God was having an off day.



Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: NeverEnoughJam on August 13, 2009, 03:23:58 PM
I believe that  in a lot of cases, people let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If  a health care system has ANY FLAWS AT ALL, they'll condemn it as being useless. The way I see it, there will be flaws and areas for improvement in any system. The difference between private and public insurance would be that, if patients have a problem with a private insurance company, they don't have much recourse other than a long and expensive class action lawsuit. If we have a problem with government-sponsored health care, we can take it to Congress or whoever. A government agency ultimately answers to the people.

Another reason I'm in favor of national public health insurance is to get the burden off the backs of private employers. Here in California, the burden is made ever more ridiculous by laws passed to make sure that people who normally don't have health coverage get covered by their employers. That means that small businesses, start-ups and other businesses have to face the same huge insurance costs that larger, better funded companies do, but for them it is proportionately more expensive. By mandating that every small business have full coverage for everyone, the government guarantees that those small businesses will hire fewer people--thereby losing jobs in the economy.

When you think about it, the whole idea of employer-funded health care is absurd. Why should my boss care about--or control--my health coverage. I laughed like everyone else at The Office's "Health Care" episode, with Dwight finding out about everyone's health problems. But in real life, that can be really intrusive and inappropriate. My employer does not get involved in my auto insurance, life insurance, home owner's insurance, etc. The only reason American employers still offer health coverage is because it's a left-over from the end of the Second World War. The labor shortage was acute, but wage controls imposed by the government meant employers could not offer higher wages to attract candidates. So they started loading on the benefits, and people came to expect them, and now here we are, two generations later, with auto parts manufacturers and paper companies trying to figure out what the right health coverage for a widely diverse group of employees should be. It's ridiculous.

If we instituted national health care, costs to consumers (us) would go down because the expense would be spread out over more people, as in all group insurance plans. The uninsured would be covered, you could get the doctor you want, and an enormous financial burden would be lifted from American business, who could presumably plow those savings back into creating jobs.

So who's opposing this plan? Duh---insurance companies, who would probably go out of business. But here's the good news--they already went out of business in the meltdown last September. Remember AIG? So what are we waiting for?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on August 14, 2009, 05:29:51 AM
Well at least the healthcare debate over in the States has resulted in some good news this side of the pond. A wacky Tory MEP (Member of the European Parliament) has been traipsing around US TV shows talking about the NHS being a "60 year mistake" which has landed his party, the Conservatives, in a lot of hot water. I couldn't be happier - the fact that David Cameron, the Tory leader, will probably be our PM in less than a year is a scary thought (to me), and seeing their true colours on display is great. The MEP in question is a real fringe character, and as an MEP he has no business touring the States - it's not his remit but I guess some people just like the attention. ::)

This article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8200817.stm) talks about the wave of people coming to the defense of the NHS (the welovetheNHS tag on twitter is a tending topic) and also about the worrying use of some Brits in misleading US conservative ads. The comments on Matthew Yglesias' recent article (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/08/in-defense-of-the-nhs.php) about the NHS also give some good perspectives about the system.

Obviously he's a liberal blogger, so has his bias, but there are a variety of comments. The fundamental thing that you'd think would appeal to conservatives about our system is that we spend so much less than other countries - we spend a fraction of what the States does for far better results. They're not as good as Holland, France, Switzerland etc. but again it's because we don't spend as much not because it's a government system. ::)

With all the attacks and misinformation about it, the stupid thing is that the Obama plan isn't even anything like the NHS - a new US system would be more like France, rather than the UK or Canada - with a basic government system, and then private top ups.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on August 14, 2009, 07:03:56 AM
I've been finding all of this #welovetheNHS stuff fascinating. Do you know who started it, Ash? I know Graham Linehan has been involved (that's where I've seen it, I've only just started a twitter account so I can follow people easier...I mean that in a less stalker-y way than than sounded...) and that he's been interviewed for the news, I think. It's a little crazy that the campaign has caught on so quickly. I also love the idea that the bloke who wrote Father Ted has been so instrumental in a campaign like this!

eta: Nevermind, it was Graham Linehan who started it, just saw his interview on Channel 4 news.

And I shall find it equally fascinating to see what happens with regard to the upcoming election and the health service in the UK after all of this focus on the NHS. God knows it's hardly without its problems, which badly need to be addressed, so I hope all of this positive PR for the NHS does some practical use.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on August 14, 2009, 07:39:04 AM
I'm no expert when it comes to health insurance, but I am very grateful for the government health insurance here in Norway. It may not be perfect, but it will cover everything I'll ever need, and it covers everybody, no matter what they make.

The idea that my employer should be in charge of my health coverage is weird to me, because as NeverEnoughJam said, it's really not any of his or her business. The government will pay the bill, and I only have to pay a maximum amount of about $400 a year for hospital coverage, medication, surgeries, exams etc. Furthermore, the medication, exams and hospital stays are much cheaper than in the US. Obviously, we pay quite a lot of taxes in this country, but I'd rather pay taxes and know that I'll be covered no matter what happens. Considering the financial situation, it's wonderful to know that even if a person loses his job, he'll still get healthcare that's just as good as the healthcare offered to the richest in the country.

Besides, none of the political parties disagree with the system. They all agree that this is the best option for our country, and it would be political suicide to support private healthcare. Thank god!  :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on August 14, 2009, 08:02:27 AM
Considering the financial situation, it's wonderful to know that even if a person loses his job, he'll still get healthcare that's just as good as the healthcare offered to the richest in the country.

Exactly! Healthcare should be fair - it's one thing that at a basic level should be the same, whether you're a homeless guy or a multi-millionaire. This idea that there isn't choice in a single-payer system is ludicrous. If you want to get private healthcare and pay for extra perks, you can do. It's available and you can use it easily - no one stops you. The difference is, that if you can't afford it, you'll still get a very good service for free, and that's why most people don't have private insurance even though many could afford it.

And all this "we don't want government run services - it's socialism!" - what about the police? The Army? Schooling? Postal Services? All of those are nationalised. Why does the right-wing not cry out about socialism in those areas in the States? It's truly baffling. ???
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on August 14, 2009, 08:19:55 AM
And all this "we don't want government run services - it's socialism!" - what about the police? The Army? Schooling? Postal Services? All of those are nationalised. Why does the right-wing not cry out about socialism in those areas in the States? It's truly baffling. ???

Exactly, the whole thing really does blow my mind a little bit. And aside from not complaining about those other aspects of society that are nationalised, why do they keep going on about it leading to a socialized country like Russia - do they honestly think the UK is a socialist country?! And that Daniel Hannan pillock - I'm glad that David Cameron seems to have distanced himself from the nonsense Hannan was spouting on Fox News.

I do hope that all of this focus on the NHS now holds the Tories a bit more accountable to do something not-stupid with it when they do get to power (and yeah, the near-certainty of their winning the next election depresses me too).
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on August 14, 2009, 08:31:14 AM
And all this "we don't want government run services - it's socialism!" - what about the police? The Army? Schooling? Postal Services? All of those are nationalised. Why does the right-wing not cry out about socialism in those areas in the States? It's truly baffling. ???

I think that any time someone goes into the post office or library or calls the fire dept/police dept they should be asked if they think that a national health care plan is socialism. If the person says yes, then they should be denied services. Eventually people will realize how much is run by the government and that it's not as bad as they're being lead to believe.  :P
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on August 14, 2009, 08:45:16 AM
Exactly, the whole thing really does blow my mind a little bit. And aside from not complaining about those other aspects of society that are nationalised, why do they keep going on about it leading to a socialized country like Russia - do they honestly think the UK is a socialist country?!

I agree. There's a common misconception among the conservatives in the US that if you have national healthcare, you must be a socialist, when that's clearly not the case. It's just a completely different system, and it's pretty obvious that FOX News doesn't know anything about it.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on August 14, 2009, 09:51:02 AM
Exactly, the whole thing really does blow my mind a little bit. And aside from not complaining about those other aspects of society that are nationalised, why do they keep going on about it leading to a socialized country like Russia - do they honestly think the UK is a socialist country?!

I agree. There's a common misconception among the conservatives in the US that if you have national healthcare, you must be a socialist, when that's clearly not the case. It's just a completely different system, and it's pretty obvious that FOX News doesn't know anything about it.

I guess what really astounds me is that it's not just ignorance (at least not on the part of the fear-mongers), it's a very deliberate and blatant lie in a lot of cases. Coming off with crap about death panels is just beyond misconception. It's quite simply not true.

And apparently now the NHS is a terrorist recruitment tool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c-JEx-Kfvc). Are you kidding me?!!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: spencer_0123 on August 14, 2009, 10:45:15 AM
Okay, the following is based entirely on my own experiences and opinions. I don’t really know anything! /Disclaimer.

Quote
To our European members, I'll ask: there's a perception here that there are terrible problems with access to care, long waiting periods for procedures, etc., in nationalized health care systems.  I don't know if there's truth to that or if it's all propaganda.  Can you give us some firsthand accounts of what the care is like?  I'd love to hear some legitimate comments (including gripes about problems!) from people who actually have nationalized health care.

As someone who has spent most of her life with medical issues (immune disorders, ulcerative colitis, cardiac “episodes”, hearing impairment) I am so thankful to live in a country that offers Universal Health Care. My mom even made a comment the other day about how lucky she felt, and how she doesn’t know what she would have done if that hadn’t been the system she’d raised me in. Yes, it has a lot of problems, but when it comes to nationalized health care the good will always outweigh the bad.

Cons:
-   Shortage of GP’s, although like MA said this is because more people are going in to specialized medicine. I’m not sure this has anything to do with the system being nationalized.
-   Long wait times (sometimes) for non-emergency procedures.
-   Quality of care can differ from hospital to hospital. Teaching/research and children’s hospitals tend to be better than regular hospitals (more private funding). But, if a hospital doesn’t have the resources to treat you, the will ambulance or airlift you to where they can.
-   In Canada the system is a bit chintzy: Prescriptions aren’t covered without insurance to those 19-64 (this will likely be a big issue for me in the future. My medications are covered as long as I’m in school, but when I’m done I’m out of luck. My pharmacist told me the prices once and I’m not looking forward to when I have to start paying. Of course, there are lots of programs in place to help people get necessary medication if they can’t afford it.) ; Also, things like crutches aren’t covered.
-   The eye doctor is no longer covered (in Ontario) for those 19-64. I went a couple of weeks ago and had to pay $40. Thankfully, being a student, my actual glasses were still paid for!
-   Hospital beds are limited, so they try to get people in and out of hospitals quickly, often before people feel they’re ready to go home. However, this does vary depending on the hospital, the patient’s age, and the home situation.

Pros:
-   I know that no matter my situation is, I will always have health coverage.
-   I know that no matter their situation is, my loved ones will always have health coverage.
-    Every procedure deemed medically necessary, emergency or not, is covered. And I know “deemed medically necessary” sends up red flags to people, but, really, it just divides medical from cosmetic.
-   Lots of hospitals and public walk-in clinics in most areas, and all you need is your health card to access any of them.
-   There’s no waiting for emergency procedures.
-   Funding and care in children’s hospitals is fantastic. I spent a lot of time in a teaching/research/children’s hospital when I was in high school. It wasn’t in my area, but they were the best for what I needed, so that’s where I was sent.

I’m sure there’s more for both lists, but that’s all I can come up with right now. I’ve never had any horrible experiences, or had to wait a long time for any procedures (usually 2-4 works at most). If I make an appointment for a check-up it’ll be backed up a few months, but if I’m sick and need to see my doctor now they’ll get me in. I’ve never seen a hospital bill, and am grateful that I never will (well, as long am I’m in Canada anyway!)

I’m just curious about other NHS systems- how far does health coverage extend in other countries? Are things like prescriptions, eye doctor, or dental included?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on August 14, 2009, 11:11:20 AM
I’m just curious about other NHS systems- how far does health coverage extend in other countries? Are things like prescriptions, eye doctor, or dental included?

Ash could probably answer this better than me, but here's what I understand:

- Prescriptions are free for the under 16s, those under 19 and in education, the over 60/65s (women retire at 60, men at 65 - I can't remember if it's retirement age for the particular gender or just all over 65s), and I think pregnant women and possibly those on benefits.

All prescriptions are a standard cost. Currently in Northern Ireland (because we have our own Assembly) prescriptions are £3, and they are planning to make them free within the next couple of years I think. In England, prescriptions are, I think about £6.50 or £6.75 (I think that's about what they were before they dropped to £3 a few months ago here). Any medication you get in hospital is free.

- Eye care is free for under 16s/under 19s and in education - but by free, there are limits. As in, you will get the most basic type of lens that you need free, but not any cosmetic extras. There is a certain discount for frames as well from what I can remember (being the grand old age of 27 I can't remember what discount off frames I used to get). I'm pretty sure you can get frames for free too, but they won't necessarily be nice ones. Eye tests are also free for those groups. This clarifies it a little better. (http://www.danda.co.uk/glasses/nhs-payment/)

- Dental care is probably the most privatised area of health care in the UK. Sort of - if you qualified for free prescriptions, you also qualify for free dental care, but as I understand it it's very tough to get an appointment with an NHS dentist. I haven't been to the dentist since I was 12 (I have a serious phobia about them) - when I went, I went to the orthodontist and the dentist there and it was all free. Most people will use a private dentist and pay for it.

Also, there are slight differences in the health care systems between England and Northern Ireland, so some things might be a bit different for me.

I'm really not all that well versed on the system - I only know what I've had to do as far as eye and dental care is concerned.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on August 14, 2009, 11:27:29 AM
Dental is free for everybody under the age of eighteen in Norway, but you have to pay for dental afterwards. However, the dental care is still a lot cheaper than in the USA. For instance, I lived in the USA while I was studying, and I had to go to the dentist to remove a wisdom tooth. However, seeing that I was a Norwegian citizen and covered by the Norwegian health care system, I simply paid the dentist in the US, and when I came back home, I sent the receipt to my local health care office, and I got my money back.  ;D

Like I said in my previous post, we have to pay a maximum amount of $400 for health care during one year. This includes dental, psychiatry, physiotherapy, all kinds of surgeries, transportation, medication, all kinds of treatments etc. Everything else is covered. For instance, if you're having a baby, you don't pay anything. The hospital is run by the government, so they take care of the bill.

I remember a couple of years ago when one of my close relatives ended up in the hospital. She had to stay there for a month because they were doing so many tests. It turned out that she was suffering from a very rare disease, but seeing that she was covered by the government, she didn't pay for anything. I remember talking to her, and we agreed that if she had lived in the United States, she might have been ruined financially because she was a housewife.

As for eye care, I had to pay for my glasses, but as far as I know it's free for kids.

The cons are that you might have to wait a while for some procedures that are non-emergencies. The hospitals are also really full, so you don't get to stay at the hospital for long. They're trying to build treatment facilities where you can stay before you go home, though.

All in all, it's pretty similar to Canada. :)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on August 14, 2009, 01:57:06 PM
Dental care is definitely the most privatised area in the UK - getting an NHS dentist is quite hard, and you have to pay for any procedures done between the ages of 18 and 65 I think. You can be lucky and be in an area where NHS dentists are taking new patients but often people will just go to the nearest one for treatment when it's needed. The difference between medical and dental care though is that to a large extent dental treatment is cosmetic.

In the US I get the impression that pretty much every kid seems to have braces at some point - here it's getting worse but not reached that level at all. It's true that we just don't care about the straightness/whiteness of our teeth as much. ;) Not sure whether you'd get braces for free as a kid if you could show that it was causing you depression/trauma - you can get certain types of cosmetic surgery on the NHS for free for those reasons. Similarly the NHS also funds up to 3 cycles of IVF for couples (or at least it is meant to) - so fertility treatment isn't available just for the rich (though after a certain point obviously you'd have to start digging into your own pockets).

The biggest plus of a free system is that usually costs are cut because it ends up being so preventative. In any GPs surgery/hospital walk in clinic there will be initiatives to help you stop smoking, to lose weight (you can see a dietician for free on the NHS - my sister saw one who recommended an eating plan for her and she's not even obese - just a bit overweight), free STD tests etc. All these things reduce major illnesses in the future.

My father had double bypass heart surgery last year really unexpectedly - he was 54, fit, non-smoker - didn't seem like there was anything wrong with him. He had chest pains, went to the doctor who suggested an angiogram (not sure of the spelling!) - now ultimately the test is voluntary as it's a surgical procedure - he had it done, they found his heart was a ticking time bomb, with 99% obstruction in the main arteries and operated within 48 hours. He could have chosen not to have the test at all or after the test have a simpler procedure such as a stent (rather than the bypass). The fact that money was not involved in the decisions I believe played a huge part in the right calls being made. If affording a test is difficult for you, you're more likely to gamble until it's too late. Why put people in that situation?

My dad got amazing treatment, and is thankfully very fit now. But the potential was there for a 54 year old, father of 4 to die of a treatable disease - he went to the doctor as soon as he had chest pains (it helps that he's a doctor himself so recognised it could be serious), he didn't wait for it to get worse by which point he could have had a heart attack. So to cut a long story short, I'm joining in on the chorus of "We love the NHS". ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 14, 2009, 02:40:02 PM


I agree. There's a common misconception among the conservatives in the US that if you have national healthcare, you must be a socialist, when that's clearly not the case. It's just a completely different system, and it's pretty obvious that FOX News doesn't know anything about it.

I think it's pretty obvious that FoxNews doesn't know much factual information about anything. They spew fear and negativity. Oh, and their sports channel stinks too. Tune out!
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on August 14, 2009, 08:36:51 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that FoxNews doesn't know much factual information about anything. They spew fear and negativity. Oh, and their sports channel stinks too. Tune out!


AH! I'm watching Fox Sports right now! Is it okay if it's the only channel showing the Tigers game?

This is a really interesting discussion on health care. I certainly don't need to persuaded on why a nationalized system is a good thing, but I'm enjoying reading the comparisons of different systems and how all of them kick our system in the ass.

I'm not particularly confident a change will come anytime soon, much as I hope for it. Some of the vitriol against this proposal is so out there, so ignorant, so over the top that . . . Yeah. No real confidence. But then, I had no confidence a country that would actually elect George W. Bush twice would elect Obama over McCain so . . . I'll try to remain calm with my fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 15, 2009, 11:52:52 AM


AH! I'm watching Fox Sports right now! Is it okay if it's the only channel showing the Tigers game?




mojoPin yes, it is okay and understandable if it is the only channel showing your beloved sports team. We had to suffer through them during the World Series with the Phillies last year. Horrible. However, we discovered that you can turn on your local AM radio station that broadcasts and hear your local announcers. Of course that doesn't help with the fact that FoxSports simply must run their commercials until the first batter in the next inning is actually about to swing (as opposed to easing you back into the game). Also, be prepared for inane sidebar stories with the camera off the game and in the booth interviews with irrelevant former players or groundskeepers while your teams pitcher hits an unprecidented home run in a World Series game. 
Is it too late to say don't get me started on FoxSports?  ???

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 15, 2009, 11:55:44 AM
Also, mojoPin, I felt the same way when GWBushleague was re-elected. Sheer disbelief with a tinge of despair. But I think I heard someone once say that America grew up the day it elected Obama. I kind of like that notion.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Papertrail on August 15, 2009, 12:52:25 PM
Relying on an employer's health care plan can be a very tricky proposition here in the States. My current place of employment is an example of that.

When I first came to work for the company, our coverage was really quite good: worked out to be about an 80/20 split of the costs, $10 co-pay for doctor's office visits, $40 co-pay for ER, discount on prescriptions. Then things changed...

The owner went through a very messy divorce about four years ago, and rather than his own lifestyle taking the hit, we, the employees did. New plan has higher co-pays and we pay the full bill up front. Receipts are faxed to a central billing office whereby we are reimbursed 50% and the company covers the other 50%. Singles have a cap each year of $1,250 and families $2,500. Once you hit this cap, 100% coverage kicks in. Better than nothing, but it can still be quite a burden for out-of-pocket expenses and in some cases, barring serious health problems, many of us will never hit the cap to get 100% coverage.

Don't even get me started on what happened to the quarterly contributions to our IRA retirement accounts.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: MojoPin on August 15, 2009, 01:00:08 PM
Also, mojoPin, I felt the same way when GWBushleague was re-elected. Sheer disbelief with a tinge of despair. But I think I heard someone once say that America grew up the day it elected Obama. I kind of like that notion.  What do you think?


The second time George W. was elected (and the first election I was able to vote in), I stayed in my bed in my dorm room staring at the wall all morning. True story.

I don't really think American grew up with the election of Obama. I think America had a mature moment. I do think it's important to remind myself that some concerns about a nationalized health care system are legitimate and that the crazy people protesting at town halls comparing Obama to Hitler are fringe fundamentalists that do not represent much of the country but . . . I still don't have an expectation that the country, as a whole, will have another mature moment by rallying something like NHC through.

I watched Bill Maher last night and comedian Dana Gould had an interesting piece where he interviewed some of the protesters, many of whom should be angry at the current system because they themselves can't afford to get sick in the status quo, and then went to interview some of those who had been getting free services offered in downtown LA usually only offered to people in third world countries. (Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of this organization but they're usually in places like Haiti or Nigeria.) And many of the people he interviewed have jobs and have health care. They just don't have enough coverage to deal with their problems. When we asked one man what his Plan B was, the man replied, "Pain".

I mean, c'mon. How is that acceptable in this country? And that so many seem to want to stick with the status quo shows me that no, America hasn't quite grown up.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 15, 2009, 02:16:57 PM
An important point to remember is that Medicare is socialized medicine. When it was first proposed in the early 60's, before being implemented in 1965 (I believe), it was the Republicans who protested this "dangerous first step towards socialized medicine". Medicare isn't perfect, but it works, apparently.  There are big questions looming. There ought to be a dialogue. But the misinformation of fear mongering is destructive and won't accomplish anything. Shame on those unwilling to at least listen and compromise, be they politicians or the public.
I do believe we need a national health care policy. We need it yesterday. Rampant insurance company greed is crippling the medical industry and reducing those going into medicine to individuals other than the best and the brightest. People don't want the government standing between them and their healthcare? I'd rather have the government than who stands in between me and my health care now: the deregulated, power-hungry insurance company.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: spencer_0123 on August 15, 2009, 03:50:29 PM
They just don't have enough coverage to deal with their problems. When we asked one man what his Plan B was, the man replied, "Pain".

I read something like this and I know I'll ever be able to wrap my head around any stance against nationalized health care. Of course I'm completely biased because I've never lived without it, but, really? The reason it exists is to help people. It's about universal inclusion. The government isn't trying to kill old people, or exclude minorities, or whatever the hell the arguments against it are. People are so paranoid about "what's really going on" when in reality many of these fears and propaganda claims already exist in the current state. As an outsider looking in, the current American system is disgusting. People die because they're poor, and people are so afraid of this so-called "socialist" approach that that becomes okay. A democratic government exists to protect its citizens. It creates both security and social structures, which in most of the Western world includes health care. It's not "yes, we'll pay billions in homeland security to protect you and your family, but, if you get cancer you're on your own."

I think the basics of all nationalized health care systems are effective. It's funding these systems that's the issue, and funding is dependent on things like population, land mass, and taxation. In Canada our health care system is having issues because there are too few people living in too large an area. We have just over 32 million people living in a country with the second largest area in the world. It's not effective for financing nationalized healthcare. But no one would ever refute it because it needs to be done, no matter the financial burden. We vote in our governments and as such trust that they will find a way to make it work. And so far, for the most part, they have. You need to have some level of faith in your government. You have to know that at the end of the day they're making decisions that will benefit the largest number of people, and something like nationalized healthcare, which is about the inclusion of everyone, is the such a perfect example of this.

Granted, I’m saying this as someone who, for the most part, trusts her government. I may not like/agree with/have faith in certain individuals within that government, but I trust the system. In this way I can understand opposition to these types of proposals within the U.S. A presidential/majority system does give a lot of power to a small amount of people, so I understand having some distrust there. But, I’m starting to ramble and get off topic so I’ll leave it at this: The U.S. has the resources to do this. It’s entirely necessary that it happens. People just need to get on board.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 24, 2009, 06:57:20 PM
Agreed spence, unfortunately it's the complainers and the nut jobs who are grabbing the headlines right now and not the people making sense and trying to have an honest dialogue.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: norsk_heksen on August 25, 2009, 12:07:00 AM
Granted, I’m saying this as someone who, for the most part, trusts her government. I may not like/agree with/have faith in certain individuals within that government, but I trust the system. In this way I can understand opposition to these types of proposals within the U.S. A presidential/majority system does give a lot of power to a small amount of people, so I understand having some distrust there. But, I’m starting to ramble and get off topic so I’ll leave it at this: The U.S. has the resources to do this. It’s entirely necessary that it happens. People just need to get on board.

I can definitely understand people here in America not trusting the government -- I mean, hell, we certainly have a lot of reasons not to! But I also think that people need to remember that we're supposed to have government "by the people, for the people," i.e. we ARE the government, ultimately. Yes, there is corruption, and I don't think that there will ever NOT be any corruption (due to the type of people that politics attracts), but I do think it's within our power to lessen corruption. And I think this universal health care is one of the ways we can do that! By not having to depend on max-profit-seeking insurance companies, we're a little less corrupt, no?

But then, by saying that we are the government, I remember something else: Americans scare me. Do other countries have such massive proportions of ignorant fundamentalist people? It's seriously scary what people will say and do and believe (I am not necessarily talking about health care here, I mean everything), and I'd like to think it's not just Americans, but... MAN, there sure seem to be a lot here, and what's more, a lot of them have power. Like Ash said, that guy downtalking the NHS is showing Britain that he has little credibility, but in America? People will hang on every word he says if it fits in with their belief system, and they'll just not think about it. Argh.

I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again -- this whole anti-socialist thing drives me up a wall. Norway's considered a socialist country, right? And guess what, it's a free country too! I'm so effing sick of socialism being a bad word. I think if people actually learned what it meant instead of having an image of something vaguely Soviet in their heads, they might actually see that it's okay. Sorry America, but if you want some equality, you're going to have to live with some socialism. You can't just pick one. >:(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on August 25, 2009, 02:25:04 PM
I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again -- this whole anti-socialist thing drives me up a wall. Norway's considered a socialist country, right? And guess what, it's a free country too! I'm so effing sick of socialism being a bad word. I think if people actually learned what it meant instead of having an image of something vaguely Soviet in their heads, they might actually see that it's okay. Sorry America, but if you want some equality, you're going to have to live with some socialism. You can't just pick one. >:(

Well said, norsk_heksen. As a Norwegian I find it fascinating (and a little disturbing) that conservative American politicians use my country as an example of how "socialism is the biggest threat to the freedom of the people." I'm sorry? We are a social democracy, and that is very different from the communist Soviet state that existed during the Cold War. The problem is that the Scandinavian social democracy model is so unfamiliar to the FOX News fans of the world that they have no idea what they're talking about. Indeed, while I was studying American politics in the USA, one of my classmates asked me why we were communists. I came this close to bursting out laughing.  laughingicon

Speaking of which, our election is coming up in two weeks, and the politicians are fighting as usual. It will be very interesting to see what happens and if the Labour Party will stay in power, or if the conservative parties will take over. Personally, I don't think the Prime Minister is going anywhere, even though I still haven't decided which party to vote for. That's the biggest problem when you have eight political parties to choose from.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 25, 2009, 03:49:36 PM
There are scary fundamentalists in every country. Not just here.  To pose the question as to whether or not they exist elsewhere and to what proportion they exist is somewhat specious. Are Americans somehow genetically different from folks elsewhere? Or, perhaps, do the eyes of the world focus here more than elsewhere? Is the US set up as some kind of ideal where when things go wrong it is some sort of character flaw? I couldn't tell you the last time I saw news footage of happenings in Norway... yet regardless of where I have traveled in the world, US news stories always feature prominently.
I'll agree that a university student who does not know the political leanings of the government of Norway is unfortunate,however it is not cause for laughter.
I have traveled extensively throughout the free and communist worlds and have encountered naive ignorance everywhere.
One does not laugh at it, one illuminates.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on August 25, 2009, 04:21:14 PM
I'm sorry, but I think you misunderstood my post. Conservative fundamentalists will always take so-called "facts" and use them as they see fit. Furthermore, I did not mean to imply that the nationality of a person has anything to do with his or her intelligence, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. On the contrary; there are ignorant people all over the world, but when you encounter somewhat strange questions about your background and your culture on a daily basis, you have to just shrug and let it slide. Obviously, you want to tell people the facts, but I lived abroad for years, and I cannot tell you how many bizarre questions I came across, so yes, at one point you want to laugh even though you don't actually laugh at the person who asked the question. Furthermore, I work in a field where I meet people from all over the world every day, so I get asked these questions all the time.  

As for conservative fundamentalists, obviously they exist all over the world, which is why our upcoming election is so important. One of the conservative parties in this country has a political agenda that is neither realistic nor logical, and their values go against the foundation of this country in my opinion. I can only hope that they don't get the majority of the votes.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on August 26, 2009, 01:35:00 AM
I couldn't believe what I saw tonight on TBS. A long-seeming ad for a crappy new George Lopez comedy on TBS and President Obama was there in it, not just for a fleeing second but for a lot of the ad. Just shilling away like anyone else in Hollywood.

I've been reluctant to criticize Obama over a lot of things this year, I cut him a lot of slack given what he inherited from his predecessor but that was just too undignified for me. I wouldn't have liked it at any time but given the serious issues the country is facing it's especially not a good idea now. One of the reasons I was for him was I was hoping he'd be more presidential than what we saw in the last two presidents.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on August 26, 2009, 01:41:39 AM

MSNBC is reporting the Senator Kennedy has died. RIP, Teddy.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sara2009 on August 26, 2009, 02:27:47 AM
I couldn't believe what I saw tonight on TBS. A long-seeming ad for a crappy new George Lopez comedy on TBS and President Obama was there in it, not just for a fleeing second but for a lot of the ad. Just shilling away like anyone else in Hollywood.

I've been reluctant to criticize Obama over a lot of things this year, I cut him a lot of slack given what he inherited from his predecessor but that was just too undignified for me. I wouldn't have liked it at any time but given the serious issues the country is facing it's especially not a good idea now. One of the reasons I was for him was I was hoping he'd be more presidential than what we saw in the last two presidents.

If you don't mind my asking, why is it such a big deal?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on August 26, 2009, 02:38:48 AM
Well as often happens on the net, by posting a lot of words about something it makes it sound like I think it's a huge deal. It's not but it's not something I like either. In our system of government the president is both head of government and head of state, he occupies in one person the same roles that in Britain is divided between the Queen and the prime minister. He's not just a politician he's a symbol of the nation, so appearances matter.

But since I'm the only person it seems to bug maybe he should take it further. He could make ads for McDonalds and Best Buy, maybe do some radio spots for the Bill Maher show or Starbucks.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on August 26, 2009, 02:42:08 AM
I haven't seen those, but you're not the only one it bugs.  Pushing a TV show isn't presidential, in my opinion.  I don't understand why he'd do that.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Sara2009 on August 26, 2009, 02:42:31 AM
Well as often happens on the net, by posting a lot of words about something it makes it sound like I think it's a huge deal. It's not but it's not something I like either. In our system of government the president is both head of government and head of state, he occupies in one person the same roles that in Britain is divided between the Queen and the prime minister. He's not just a politician he's a symbol of the nation, so appearances matter.

But since I'm the only person it seems to bug maybe he should take it further. He could make ads for McDonalds and Best Buy, maybe do some radio spots for the Bill Maher show or Starbucks.

I can understand that. Obama's "celebrity" status actually bugs me too sometimes. I just think that as long as it doesn't affect his work too much, it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on August 26, 2009, 02:45:45 AM
I don't mind his celebrity status; in my mind that's just the charisma he has that his immediate predecessor lacked.  But I don't want my president hawking stuff, unless it's something like a health plan or something he, as leader of the country, is trying to push through. (/still hoping this is done by F/X and the George Lopez people are going to catch flak for it)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Swedge on August 26, 2009, 02:52:39 AM
Maybe Lopez faked it. It looked real to me but the ability to fake video and images gets more sophisticated every day.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: kreidy on August 26, 2009, 04:05:04 AM
I haven't seen the ad, but are you referring to the ad they're talking about in this article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32195465/ns/entertainment-television/), Swedge?
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: colette on August 26, 2009, 07:15:21 AM
Ted Kennedy died late last night.  :'(


Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on August 31, 2009, 12:44:08 PM
Political, but mostly funny.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvpFMkeKB1Q&feature=related

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: BottleBlue on September 04, 2009, 05:46:50 PM
I'd like the opinion of my fine fellow MTT-ers.  Where do you stand on the Obama speech to schoolchildren next week?  The school district I work in isn't allowing us to show it, with the reasoning that it will take away from instructional time.  I understand and respect the right of a parent to make such a choice for a child, and I understand that as educators we are parents by proxy, but I see it as a gesture of disrespect to the President.  Shouldn't we engage those whose views differ with ours rather than ignore them?  Isn't that a better lesson?

Thoughts?

I teach juniors and seniors in high school, by the way.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on September 04, 2009, 06:37:01 PM
I'd like the opinion of my fine fellow MTT-ers.  Where do you stand on the Obama speech to schoolchildren next week?  The school district I work in isn't allowing us to show it, with the reasoning that it will take away from instructional time.  I understand and respect the right of a parent to make such a choice for a child, and I understand that as educators we are parents by proxy, but I see it as a gesture of disrespect to the President.  Shouldn't we engage those whose views differ with ours rather than ignore them?  Isn't that a better lesson?

Thoughts?

I teach juniors and seniors in high school, by the way.

I think Obama's speech is a good idea. IIRC other presidents have done it, and I can't imagine why anyone of any party would say the President giving a brief address to schoolchildren - over something that I'm sure is as non-controversial as "education is valuable so stay in school, work hard, and don't do drugs" - is horrifically offensive.

That said, in high school, I can understand why they would opt out of it for the reasoning that it would take away from instructional time. Apparently, there's a lesson plan for the speech involving some writing activity that would take up time that seems kinda pointless for older high schoolers, like the ones you teach. At least your school district isn't shrieking "NO GOVERNMENT IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS!!!! STOP THE CULT OF PERSONALITY/INDOCTRINATION!!!!!" or whatever else I see way too often on the news.

ETA a few days later: Here (http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks/) are Obama's remarks. Pretty much what I expected, and I can't find anything controversial.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: norsk_heksen on September 04, 2009, 11:12:38 PM
Yeah, I remember reading one comment from a lady that said, "I send my kids to school to be educated, not indoctrinated!" and I thought, "Have you ever been in a school, lady?! I'm pretty sure most public schools in America don't exactly make indivuality a priority." Wonder what she'll think when she finds out these public schools are government run... ::)

As you can guess, I don't really have anything against the speech. Schools aren't being forced to watch it, or use the lesson plans, after all. I can, however, understand not being able or wanting to make time for it; I doubt it's going to be all that effective. And if the lesson plans don't encourage critical thinking (I actually have no idea whether that's the case or not), then the teachers can tweak and improve them. I guess I have a hard time seeing it in terms of respect, mostly because I'm not a person who respects authority on principle. But ITA that listening to opposing viewpoints (respectfully! there it is) is not only a good idea but a great way to learn at any level.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on September 08, 2009, 08:25:47 AM
If I hear anyone use the word "indoctrination" today, I'm shooting spitballs at them and asking quesitons later. Ugh. Cut me a break! My son's school has "left it up to the individual teacher". Cop out. Have a little faith, people. Have a little backbone, educators. Sheesh! Enough already.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Ash86 on September 08, 2009, 08:41:11 AM
The kind of addresses that the US President gives on TV and radio are pretty unheard of in the UK, so maybe that's why the idea of him speaking to all the children sounds a bit strange to me. Not necessarily due to issues of indoctrination but because of the principle of it. What exactly is being achieved by it? And doesn't the President have a lot more pressing issues than a cutesy speech to school kids?

I'm a pretty strong liberal so I doubt I'd have any problems with what Obama would say, but it still strikes me as odd. A lot of my US friends have been incensed about the hesitation/reluctance of schools, but I wonder what they would make of it had it been Bush making that speech rather than Obama? Would they have been fighting just as hard to get kids to watch it?

Again he's not my president so my views are obviously informed from a different background. We don't really have a culture of automatic respect for the Prime Minister - he's just a guy doing a job. And as for seeing him speak - he debates with the leader of the opposition and takes questions from members of parliament for 45 minutes every week in Prime Minister's Questions - a televised event. I find that far more compelling than a speech since it's such a roudy, raucous affair with the best insults being hurled around. Better than any soap opera. :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on September 08, 2009, 11:46:41 AM
I didn't vote for either Bush, nor did I have much confidence or trust in GWB's abilities or even his intelligence. That being said, I would not have tried to run interference if my son's school chose to televise an address he was making to schoolchildren about the value of education.

What is the value in Obama's speech? Probably not very high. However, if it reaches and speaks to someone out there an inspires them - okay. I've seen presidents waste their time and my taxpayer money on much less worthy endeavors. I seem to remember a recent president wasting a whole lot of his time, the Navy's time, the Marine Corp's time, the Secret Service's time, the Air Force's time parachuting onto an aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf with an equally worthless "Mission Accomplished" banner hanging behind him. Cynically you can say at least Obama is just using up air time from the networks.

I WISH we had a system whereby the president and cabinet members were grilled on a weekly basis by someone/anyone who could ask hard questions. ash this is to your country's credit. Well done over there.


Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on September 08, 2009, 11:53:48 AM
I was saying to hubby that even though I strongly disliked W as president, if I had the chance to meet him, I would still do it b/c the office of the President is something that should be respected by everyone in this country. I find it disgusting that the crazy people on the right that are making headlines lately (since being whipped into a frenzy during the election) seem to have forgotten about the respect that all presidents should have - whether or not you believe in their policies.

That's exactly what I think is happening with the issue of Obama speaking to the children - these crazies have no respect! Where was the outrage when Reagan and Bush Sr. did that same thing?  >:(
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on September 08, 2009, 12:10:42 PM
There are a lot of things my school have done that are less worthy than a "stay in school" speech by the President, like have the town's winning high school football team come visit the grade-schoolers and sign autographs. :D  I'm fine with whatever the school principal thinks there's time for.  The kids loved the footballers, by the way.

The President's schedule is full of odd little photo-ops and visits with people you wouldn't expect.  On 9/11/01, wasn't George Bush speaking with or reading to schoolchildren when he got word of the attacks?  Obviously, when something happens, the President goes to deal with the more important things.

ETA:  It was a nice speech.  I don't know if my kids were going to get to see it or not, but I think it was worth hearing.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: bigtunette on September 09, 2009, 11:02:52 PM
Did some congressman REALLY yell "YOU LIE!" at Obama during his address to Congress tonight? Yes, yes, Joe Wilson did. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gTWB1M9VPOte4M77spW7Z62NsGyQD9AK4ULO0)

I have nothing but rage. Just... incoherent rage.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: Too Late Kev on September 10, 2009, 01:18:17 AM
Classy! ::)  I loved the daggers Pelosi was shooting at him after that, and Biden was just shaking his head. ;D  Best reactions ever.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on September 10, 2009, 10:24:11 AM
South Carolina is a beautiful, genteel state that everyone should visit. Unfortunately it has not been a banner year for some of the politicians representing the Palmetto State.  Trust me that here in Pennsylvania we, too, have had our off years for those in public office. Thanks for taking the pressure off of Arlen Spector for a little bit.  :D

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: girl7 on September 10, 2009, 12:58:59 PM
Quote
I have nothing but rage. Just... incoherent rage.

Yeah, apparently he did, too.  :D

Seriously, though, I couldn't believe that.  I mean, regardless of whether or not one agrees with Obama, the thought of just screaming at him in the middle of his address is astonishing to me.

What would've been a proportionate response to that, I wonder?  "Yeah, well you smell!" Or perhaps Obama should've employed a Michael Scott-esque, "Shhhhhuuuuttt it."  Ooh, or a Dwight comeback: "Quiet, you!" :D

(I'm sorry; I got a little carried away there...)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: summerteeth on September 10, 2009, 01:10:34 PM
Joe Wilson's Democratic opponent has raised $200k in donations since his little outburst (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/10/wilsons-opponent-raises-100k/). ;D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: norsk_heksen on September 10, 2009, 04:37:56 PM
Quote
I have nothing but rage. Just... incoherent rage.

Yeah, apparently he did, too.  :D

Seriously, though, I couldn't believe that.  I mean, regardless of whether or not one agrees with Obama, the thought of just screaming at him in the middle of his address is astonishing to me.

What would've been a proportionate response to that, I wonder?  "Yeah, well you smell!" Or perhaps Obama should've employed a Michael Scott-esque, "Shhhhhuuuuttt it."  Ooh, or a Dwight comeback: "Quiet, you!" :D

(I'm sorry; I got a little carried away there...)

I prefer the classic, "Your FACE lies!" :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: funkybutt on September 18, 2009, 09:32:47 AM
Wow, I can't believe people listen to this asshat!

Limbaugh: We need segregated buses (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/17/limbaugh-we-need-segregated-buses/)
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on September 18, 2009, 11:00:22 AM
That's despicable. I seriously need something funny right about now. Anyone?

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on September 23, 2009, 08:55:21 PM

Tee-Hee!  Lawrence O'Donnell, a former writer on The West Wing and currently an analyst on MSNBC, is subbing for Olbermann tonight. He just teased a segment on Kaddafi's problems with finding a place to stay in NYC by saying, "No one has ever had this much trouble trying to pitch a tent."  :D
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on September 30, 2009, 02:38:31 PM
Well the bid for a national policy for health care was just dealt a death blow by the Senate Finance Committee "Weinies of Washington". Wouldn't want to mess with the existing tremendous options open to everyone now would we? Oh wait, they're not open to everyone. Crap! I wonder if the committee knew

.
Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: halfbaked on October 22, 2009, 06:47:57 PM

This might be old news, but it was new to me. 

A copycat book, Going Rouge, is coming out the same day as Sarah Palin's book, Going Rogue.   laughingicon

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/neverbeendone/40ebc6eb.jpg)
source (http://shelf-life.ew.com/2009/10/21/going-rouge-palin-basher-lookalike/)

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: dinknflicker on October 23, 2009, 07:32:26 AM

This might be old news, but it was new to me. 

A copycat book, Going Rouge, is coming out the same day as Sarah Palin's book, Going Rogue.   laughingicon

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/neverbeendone/40ebc6eb.jpg)
source (http://shelf-life.ew.com/2009/10/21/going-rouge-palin-basher-lookalike/)



Sorry, but I just keep wondering why her 10 minutes of fame aren't already over. They're surely not fueled by intelligence, savvy and political experience. Maybe it's the Neimann Marcus fashions.

Title: Re: Politics #2: Do You Want to Form an Alliance?
Post by: S.K on October 23, 2009, 08:11:59 AM</