1 [Report This]Date: November 01, 2020 10:15 am Title: Vs. The King of Forwards
I think Jim fantasising about Pam is entirely reasonable - I can understand your caution, but I think he's allowed to be sexually attracted to her - even though it was inappropriate at the time - and I don't think I would call it as objectification unless he doesn't also see her as a person whom he respects - and we know that's not the case. I thought it was realistic, and not in bad taste. Todd Packer fantasising about Pam is different from Jim doing it.
You wouldn't write some of those exchanges for TV now, but at the time - and even more so when the British Office was released - a lot of those comments or incidents wouldn't have been questioned, however people might have felt about them privately.
I sometimes felt, watching the show, that Jim could and should have stood up for Pam more. Perhaps they felt that the character would have been uneasy about being too pro-Pam, and giving himself away?
Anyway, I'm really enjoying this!
Author's Response: I appreciate your comments on the fantasy - I've been done with this for weeks and am still going back and forth on whether or not that should've been included.
As I mentioned, *very* striking to me watching some of this from the perspective of 2020 - and that's even thinking about it knowing that we're meant to understand this is all inappropriate. It's just odd seeing it coming out of the mouths of characters we're supposed to like anyways, and seeing people not react. Definitely not unrealistic for the time, though.
It's funny, actually - I had similar thoughts about Jim, and reached a similar conclusion in writing this, as a result of which his schemes to stand up for her tend to be pretty subtle. Pam's lack of awareness about her own feelings in some ways frees her up to defend Jim, which means when this is finally done (it's been, um, delayed due to certain events) she's mostly going to have gone a lot farther than Jim did in standing up for him. It's a theme I keep coming back to in writing fic, how Pam's lack of sense of what she was feeling actually allowed her to be more expressive and enjoy their dynamic more.
1 [Report This]Date: October 23, 2020 08:44 am Title: Vs. The King of Forwards
I like this chapter a lot. I agree with you that this piece isn't that simple as it might seem. Your interpretation makes a lot of sense, though the timing of Jim's daydreaming is terrible (to be honest, I feel like I simply don't know the way guys' brains function, and if (random) fantasy could appear even in a wrong moment, my remark is irrelevant; I'm sorry if this my comment is confusing a little, hope you understand what I meant).
I remembered that I cringed a lot watching earlier seasons, and sometimes I feel like there is no particular connection between episodes (like, in one episode, characters could have a huge fight, and in another — act as if nothing happened at all). And I feel like the show that started as painfully realistic and awkward turned into something milder and more comfortable to look at (though a little less realistic). I explained to myself the change in Pam-Michael's dynamic that way.
The other explanation is that Pam is a saint, and she, luckily, not.
And I like that Jim isn't perfect either.
Thank you for your thought-provoking chapter, and looking forward to the next one!
Author's Response: No, I get what you're saying - speaking as a guy, I do feel like the idea that Michael talking about Pam performing a sexual act would put certain images in Jim's head is, unpleasantly, realistic. It's a reflex, not something to be proud of, but something that happens.
I definitely agree that the show got deliberately more comfortable as time went on, and that showed up in some of the relationships that would have been tested by the more realistic and awkward version. It is always a fun challenge to try to explain those challenges and the lack of connection between episodes in fanfiction though!
I'm glad you liked this one... the next one is, um, in progress. ::sweats::
Date: October 22, 2020 06:08 pm Title: Vs. The King of Forwards
The last line did it for me. The line that had me smiling and satisfied.
Michael was extremely cringe in the interaction with Pam and so glad to see Jim retaliate even if it meant putting himself in harms way to do it. Anything for Pam, right. the little fantasy in his mind was different for Jim but he also was playing with the blow up doll this episode so I'll buy it.
Author's Response: I would say something about how I felt that even in Jim's head, he probably tries to change the subject with a joke sometimes, but honestly that line just made me laugh.
Michael definitely needed to be brought in line in this episode - I don't know that this was the writers' intention or anything, but it was always striking to me that Jim does something so short-sighted so soon afterwards just to tweak Michael.
I think the fantasy is pretty realistic. He's great, but not a saint. I'm just not sure that including the objectification of Pam undercuts the point of a chapter about the objectification of Pam. ::shrugs::
Date: October 22, 2020 05:14 pm Title: Vs. The King of Forwards
So an interesting chapter to be sure. I agree that Michael crossed many lines during his course on the show. In today's actual real world he would have been fired for so many different things. However in the fantasy of TV he can get away with it. It's not always right but there you go.
Early season Pam let Michael get away with it too. However as the show progressed it's my impression she was less tolerant of such behavior. Part of the growth of her character.
Not bad with Jim. You're right, he's not perfect. Also in this phase of their relationship I'm sure he's got many a fantasy about her. Part of the pining after the girl who's not mine. I'd like to think that as Jim grows as a character he'd realize that reality with Pam is better than any fantasy he might have had.
Author's Response: That's always an interesting question about fic, isn't it? How much you want to try to address the conflicts between the rules of this fictional universe and our world? Opens up a lot of potential. (Someone from a listicle website should definitely do a rewatch of the series and mark every time a character does something that would have gotten them fired in the real world.) I do think Pam stands up to him more as time goes on (and I think their relationship is also not that close at this point in the season), but it is hard to avoid the idea that this is a lot about deliberate choices in the writers' room - they're still in the process of transitioning away from American David Brent to Steve Carell's more personally appealing version of a boss here. I'm glad this version of Jim worked for you - and I agree that down the road he's going to eyeroll at this stage of himself.
1 [Report This]Date: October 22, 2020 02:56 pm Title: Vs. The King of Forwards
I liked this. As someone who only started watching The Office in 2020, I found Michael's constant sexual harassment of Pam...difficult to watch. And I agree that Jim should have called him out on it more (although also, the awkward no one saying anything was probably quite accurate for the time). And I think this is realistic - Jim's not perfect. His redeeming feature for me in Sexual Harassment was how much he hated Todd Packer (and I find any scene with Todd Packer in really, really difficult to watch and verging on not funny at all).
But back to this chapter - I think it's very well-written and you get the balance/conflict between Jim as Pam's best friend and Jim fantasising about Pam exactly right. One of things I really liked about S2 Jim is that he only ever talks about Pam's personality when he's trying to explain what he likes about her - but...clearly that's not the only thing he's noticed. So the internal dialogue and the way he catches himself and feels guilty about it feel spot on.
Author's Response: It really is unpleasant, and especially given how often we're asked to sympathize with Michael immediately after he does something genuinely abhorrent because he gets embarrassed when someone pushes back. I do think that Jim/the rest of the ensemble not commenting is realistic to the timeframe, but it's definitely Very Noticeable. And oooof. Yes. Packer is unwatchable. (Naturally, he is an inciting incident in a future chapter of this fic.) Yeah, it is very clear that Jim's love for Pam is pure... but I don't think it's chaste, and I'm glad the conflicts that arise from that work for you.